Hello!-Long post, please read!

[Sharky]

Hello PitbullForum! I joined because I'd like to connect to the PROPER Pitbull community, and I have high hopes this is the right place for me. I've been having a lot of trouble lately on the way people view and treat Pitbulls. Not only the worst case scenarios where people abuse their dogs or use them in fighting(this 'trend' is all-to-obviously horrid), but also people who cannot control their dogs and leave them chained outside, people who over-breed and consider 'blue-nose' and 'red-nose' (which yes, I've heard of the Old Family Red Nose. Which to my knowledge no longer exists) to be registered breeds. I know people who paid hundreds of dollars for a 'blue-nose' and got 'papers' with the dog. Are the papers just written in handwriting and say "This dog is registered in the kennel club that doesn't exist" I do not know. But I do know, that there are specific breeds seen as 'Pitbulls' that are actual registered breeds; American Pit Bull Terrier, Cane Corso, Preso Canario, Dogo Argentino, Staffordshire Terrier, American Bulldog, and more.

Which leads me to my next issue. I had people on a different forum (it was a general dog forum) that consistently corrected me if I addressed a dog as just a Pitbull and didn't say "APBT" (which I would have if the dog I was talking about was actually an American Pit Bull Terrier). These people, I think, have had only online education about Pitbulls and don't know much about the real world of Pits. The majority are combination dogs, which in literal terms they would be a mutt. But you look at the dog and say "that's a Pitbull". Usually the dogs have a long lineage of, let's say, their mother was somewhere down the line an APBT but also had some type of bulldog in her, while the father had some pointer in him that was also mixed with boxer or who knows... This trend happens over and over again between 'mutts' and other 'mutts' but they are all considered by the majority of people to be Pitbulls. Which can vary from big round heads and short 100 pound bodies to long faced, long legged 50 pound Pits. They come in every shape and every color that a dog can possibly be. But you still know a 'Pit mix' when you see one. And most everyone (besides maybe a dog show judge) will address the dog as a Pitbull and recognize it as one. With all the problems that surround the Pit as a whole, I think it's impossible to just try to say "Well... It's just a mutt of a mutt of a mutt of a mutt". Normal people in the street will not see your dog and think it's a mutt(which the majority of 'Pitbulls' are).

With THAT being said, I would like to move on to say I am a strong advocate for the happy 'it's christmas every day' Pits that we all know and love. Honestly, Pitbulls are my thing, but I love all Molosser dogs (they generally all are born with the same temperament, or at least very similar temperaments-more are calm than others, others are more hyper, but they're all very close in my opinion). And I'm sick of people taking Rottweilers, or their 'blue nosed Pit' (as they would call them) and chain them up outside all day everyday as if the dog is a lawn ornament. When all the dog wants to do, is be with people(unless it turned aggressive from being chained up for years on end) and please them. I had a personal experience that exact point I am trying to make...
One of my good friends (all though I do disagree with the way they handle this particular dog) has a Pitbull chained up outside all day everyday. I was over there recently for a bonfire, and I asked politely if I could go say hi to the chained up dog. His voice was hoarse from barking so much to get people's attention, but his tail was wagging and I could see my own dog's personality in him. When I asked, I made sure to also ask if he was aggressive (which I doubted before I even got an answer, but it's always important to ask when you're able). They told me "Oh no, he's not aggressive. He's just a big boy and gets excited and doesn't know he's so big." Which didn't bother me at all, because my own dog can be the same way. But when they said it, they hinted that they didn't really feel comfortable with me going up to him, so I obliged. I asked why he was chained up, and they told me he was a runner. But later on, they let him off his chain, and to my surprise... I found that the dog was actually listening to me better than his owners! I treated him as if he was my own dog, and firmly would call his name and tell him to come, and he would come-despite the fact his entire body was wagging in excitement. I told him firmly to sit, and he sat. His owner tried to get him to do the same things, and he completely blew her off. I was actually shocked. And to be honest, I think it all has to do with the way you present yourself to the dog. All dogs train differently, but I've noticed a HUGE trend with the 'it's christmas every day of my life' Pitbulls that can't control themselves because they're just too dang happy! Some people resort to severely beating the dog every time s/he gets excited(not my friend, just incase you were wondering) and eventually the dog is just too depressed and fearful to be excited anymore. Others seem to not have the 'balls' to control their rambunctious Pittie, and they let their dog walk all over them. Or they resort to the easy solutions like staying in a kennel constantly or being chained. I disagree with all of these forms of dealing with the dog. You HAVE to let that excited dog know YOU are his chief, his superior, his alpha. Not only so you don't have a dog walking all over you, but so when other people come into contact with your dog, your dog doesn't get put down because the excited pup jumped on them, and they took it as an assault. And from personal experience, what works best for me with these particular Pits, is you have to give tremendous amounts of praise when the dog does ANYTHING you want him to do; come to you, sit, stay, whatever. But when he does something wrong like jumping, you have to give a harsh yell and sometimes with the more bull-headed ones, a quick smack(not a PUNCH, not BEAT DOWN, not a harsh slap across the muzzle, but a quick 'hey, listen to me!' smack on his behind. But you obviously CANNOT do this with every dog, especially if they have an abusive history because it could seriously scare them and make them instantly fear you). And even then, I think the smacking can usually be avoided by just having a prong collar. For example, you're around someone the dog hasn't met and the dog is excited and wants to jump or pull you to get to the person; a quick correction with the prong collar (sometimes they'll ignore you at first and keep going, so you have to keep correcting with each 'pull' or 'jump' they give) and the dog will learn. He might stop that one specific time and stop doing it then, but I can almost guarantee you, that you'll have to reteach him that particular form of correction over and over again until he finally gets it. Just like teaching him a command. What works well for me, with the jumping, is correcting with the prong collar when they pull or try to jump on someone, and then as soon as they stop for that split second from the correction, command them to sit and then highly praise them.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, I just strongly strongly love Pitbulls, and I think it's SO important to fight this reputation and BSL they have, so that a dog isn't put down because his owner was either too abusive OR too lenient and let their dog do whatever he wants. Even if the dog isn't having aggressive behavior, like I said, 'outsiders' are idiots and you MUST assume that any stranger will find any excuse to have your dog put down(which is not always the case, but it's better to be safe than sorry) and will not differentiate aggression from excitement. People NEED to start taking proper care and control of their Pitbulls so that a precious soul isn't put down because others viewed the dogs actions differently than what you know to be true.

Also, I want to make sure that it is clear that when I was talking about correcting the dog, I was specifically talking about the 'christmas morning' 'excited' Pits. Particularly with the behind-smack. I don't want anyone to perceive that as me being abusive, and I also don't want anyone thinking "well my dog doesn't need that he's calm, submissive, or came from a terrible past-so who are you to say how to handle my dog." I'm also sure there are ways others have come up with to control these 'excited' dogs, and I don't deny that. I just feel that SOMETIMES it's necessary (and it usually works for me) because I think it's worse to have a dog put down because he's not under your control, just because you didn't want to enforce that you're the boss because you love your dog so much and don't want to 'hurt' him(and what I'm talking about, I really couldn't call that 'hurting' the dog, just getting his attention). I hope that anyone who reads this agrees at least to some degree, or knows where I'm coming from. I mean, sometimes you have to smack your child on the butt to get them to stop bad behavior. You don't slap them in the face or beat the crap out of them. That's abuse. It's not abuse if you just smack them on the butt to let them know you're not joking, and I think dogs respond to that a whole lot better than human children do.

Anyways, I hope you read all of this, and respond! Please do not attack me for my beliefs(I'm open to debate, just not heated aggressive-online debate), because I love Pits probably just as much as you do. My dog is my best friend in the world, and I couldn't live without him and I know he feels the same about me. We're inseparable and there's a bond there that's one-of-a-kind. A true man's best friend dynamic. And I want everyone to feel this way, and I REALLY want people to be more educated about how to handle their Pits, so we can collectively stop this terrible reputation that's destroying hundreds of Pitbulls (if not, thousands) each and every day.

[jamielvsaustin]

Hi Sharky, to PBF. I think you'll find exactly what you're looking for here, and a bunch of like minded people. There are a lot of things you've written about that I, myself agree with.

Your comment on being alpha, though, isn't one of them. Here are a few articles you might find interesting:
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues ... 415-1.html
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/my- ... -is-flawed
http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/
http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-expert ... hs-decoded

The last one has a lot of general information, that you're probably already familiar with, and likely agree with...but there are a few things in there about dominance/alpha like issues.

[Sharky]

Hello there! I'm glad someone responded!!

So I'm not finished reading this articles, but in the first one it says:

3) Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist Kathy Sdao: “. . . Even if dogs did form linear packs, there’s no evidence to suggest that they perceive humans as part of their species-specific ranking. In general, humans lack the capability to even recognize, let alone replicate, the elegant subtleties of canine body language. So it’s hard to imagine that dogs could perceive us as pack members at all.”

That I highly disagree with. There have been tests where they raised a group of wolves and a group of dogs, in exactly the same way and then did some tests to follow. The main difference between the dogs and the wolf, is that the dogs would follow the human in a way the wolf would not. The dogs looked to the humans for guidance in problem solving, guidance in where to get food, and would copy the way the humans acted(example: jumping up and down when the human jumped up and down). The wolves didn't see people in the same way. They wouldn't inherit any of the humans actions and totally blew them off. Though they learned the basic command 'sit' they did not learn from us the way the learn from each other. Because we are not a part of the pack to them. Dogs fully view us as part of their pack, because of domestication. So in response to the paragraph I copied and pasted; yes, there IS in fact evidence. I'm not a scientist in a controlled lab, but I can tell you my dog looks to me for guidance all the time. Not because I'm giving my dog humanistic character, but whenever he wants to do something he looks at me and waits until I 'give him the okay'. I feed both of our dogs (my boyfriend's dog as well) and my boyfriends dog will NOT start to eat until I give her a pat on the head and say 'eat your food' (which I don't think s know what I'm saying, but I think she picks up on the way I say it). Which is peculiar to me. She is a timid dog who was basically feral before we got her and mainly socialized with other dogs in the past. My boyfriends mother always had 4-5 other dogs, and Dakota (boyfriends dog) used to live with them for about two years after she was adopted. She was attached to the group of dogs like you wouldn't believe. Wherever they went, she went. She wouldn't come when called and would hide behind the other dogs(and mind you, the other dogs were very human-responsive, unlike Dakota). She didn't listen to any commands (though she somehow did know basic commands, so I don't think she was COMPLETELY feral) and every action she did was completely based off of what the other dogs did. She would only eat after they ate, and would only want to go outside when all the other dogs were headed to the door. She would only come in once the group was going back in.
But now she's separated from them and has been for a while. She listens to sit, stay, lie down, and come. All of which we did not teach her, we just had to earn her trust first. She now goes where my boyfriend goes (my dog follows me everywhere, and she doesn't follow him-though they do love each other) and she still shows some of the same pack-driven qualities she had before. Except the pack of dogs were replaced by me, my boyfriend, and my dog. She never hides behind my dog, and she never looks to him to see what he'll do when asked a command (which she would do beforehand with the other dogs). She looks to us. Which brings me back to the eating thing. She wouldn't eat when we first took her in, and I realized something-she was staring either at me, or my boyfriend every time! At this point we were still earning her trust. But as soon as I talked calmly to her and started to pet her and point at the food, she ate. She use to look up and wait for approval throughout eating, but now I just give her a quick pet and tell her 'good girl' after she eats all of her food. I'm weening her off of this habit, because I don't like that she has to depend on approval just to eat food. But she's been getting better, and the bond she has with us as her leaders is obvious to me. As well as my dog, but Dakota is a prime example in my opinion.
So although I think that they do, maybe dogs don't see us as their alphas. Who really knows? But I do know that having that mentality is the reason why my dogs listen so well to us. Whether we're their Alphas or not, it works for me and everyone I know that has well-behaved dogs. I've never met someone who didn't have a strong foot in that they were their dogs leader, and had a well-behaved dog. Those are the people that I've met that don't know what to do so they let their dogs act crazy and walk all over them and anyone they meet and they don't listen to a thing you say, or they take the easy way out and chain their dog to a tree because it's just 'too hard' otherwise.

[Leslie H]

I hope we can help you out, welcome.