Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

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Re: Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

Postby MetaMuffin » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:12 pm

Celesteandthebullies wrote:I know it doesn't mean instant death always. I am no expert on guns but wouldn't a elephant gun do the job?

I don't mind using the dogs to find them. If they're in public areas they could be tranquilized then killed. :dunno:


Yeah, but what if you miss? You're dead.

We don't have wild hogs up here (that I know of), but as I understand using dogs is the safest way to do it, for everyone. And the dogs also wear protection.

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Re: Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

Postby merriterrier » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:21 pm

ProudMommy77 wrote:
Celesteandthebullies wrote:I'd see the over population issues curved with a good shot and a gun than a dog's teeth tearing into flesh.

But that's just me.


Hogs aren't always that easy to find...I mean while there is a huge over population of them, using a gun isn't always the right thing to do, especially when it comes to residential type of areas or livestock. It's easier to bay them up, and send in the catch dogs, and then handle business from there. Not to mention, a gun shot doesn't mean instant death to the hog.

I am all for hog hunting, I mean Paver's line has been bred for generations for the work, however there should be ethics in place when doing catch work.



:goodpost:

Dogs have been used and will continue to be used as a form of pest control. This is a real service in some areas. Dogs are simply better equipped to find and catch some animals; they fit in small places, they have incredible noses, and they have courage most people lack (I wouldn't want to grab a wild hog). We didn't used to have hogs here 4-5yrs ago, but now the southeastern part of the state is over run with hogs and we are even seeing a few locally.

As far as shooting the hog goes; if you fail to get a disabling/kill shot the hog will run off and (often) get lost in the bush. And that results in a real pleasant death from infection and/or starvation.

Obviously any form of hunting should emphasize good ethics and respect for the animals being worked and hunted. I prefer to see dogs equipped with Kevlar armor.

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Leslie H
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Re: Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

Postby Leslie H » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:01 pm

I was curious as to the legality of the penned catching. Jen, this may have been before your involvement w/American Bulldogs, but there were a few busts courtesy of our good buddies John Goodwin and HSUS. I don't believe there were any convictions, but there were numbers of dogs confiscated and families disrupted.

For the record, I'm OK w/using dogs to catch hogs. I do not think I'd risk mine personally, though Xanny made it abundantly clear she would like to catch. I can understand the rescue's concerns.

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Re: Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

Postby Pit Chick » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:07 pm

Red wrote:Kudos to the rescue group.

He keeps some hogs on his property for training purposes and he had one that was pretty tame that he let my fosters practice on. They went after it straight away with no hesitation. They worked as a team, had it cornered, chased it around the pen. The pup even went in for a few bites.


What a fair thing.Chasing and biting a penned animal.


They are very thick skinned, tough animals. They don't hesitate to charge the dogs and the pup even got rolled a few times by the hog. It's a fair fight and it is controlled. The dogs have to be trained up somehow before they are set loose on a true wild hog. Yes, this man makes a living off of training and hunting and like someone said, provides a great service by keeping the feral hog populations under control. They ruin crops by digging them up and eating the roots. If they were just eating the crop it would grow back, but the roots being eaten destroys the plant completely. When this happens, not only do the farmers suffer, but we the consumers suffer when the price of food goes up or there is no food.

I'm no hunter myself, not a fan of killing, but I tip my hat to those ethical hunters that take the time to go out and keep these pests in check and the dogs that make it all possible.

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Re: Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

Postby MikeZev » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:03 pm

i have no problem with dogs catching hogs but to say they need "training" by using a penned animal sounds silly to me. they have been catching wild animals for tens of thousands of years. this reeks eerily like the "bait dog" deal.

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Leslie H
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Re: Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

Postby Leslie H » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:34 pm

Hey Mike, congrats on your dogs passing the TT.

From what I've heard, dogs should get some clue about catching in a controlled situation. They're better off learning hogs will use their teeth and how to grip them safely on a pig with small tusks, before they deal w/the real thing. You also need to know if the dog can work with other dogs.

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Re: Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

Postby merriterrier » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:41 pm

I would think it may be like herding where dogs learn on easy stock before trying the rougher lot. With terriers some people start them out on rats or captured squirrels to get them used to the idea of going to ground or entering the tunnel (the animals are caged however, and ideally do not come in contact with the terrier). But I don't know since I don't hog hunt.

Leslie H wrote:I was curious as to the legality of the penned catching. Jen, this may have been before your involvement w/American Bulldogs, but there were a few busts courtesy of our good buddies John Goodwin and HSUS. I don't believe there were any convictions, but there were numbers of dogs confiscated and families disrupted.


I recall when the HSUS had a whole publicity thing about the horrors of penned catching and Hog Dog Rodeos (or something like that). I believe it was likened to dog fighting or baiting... I wonder if there is further info on this?


I just want to make it clear that while I do not oppose ethical hunting with dogs, I do understand why a rescue would be wary. The world of dogs as a livelihood is different than the pet dog world. Dogs can be disposable. Dogs can be in kennels or on tie outs for ridiculous amounts of time. Sometimes dogs are PTS instead of being treated. In my experience most people treat their dogs well and hunt ethically, but there is always going to be the crowd who screws it all up for the rest of us (just like the Pit Bull world).

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Re: Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

Postby Red » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:17 pm

Pit Chick wrote:
Red wrote:

What a fair thing.Chasing and biting a penned animal.


They are very thick skinned, tough animals. They don't hesitate to charge the dogs and the pup even got rolled a few times by the hog. It's a fair fight and it is controlled.


No, it is not fair when an animal is penned and have no way to escape and the dogs catch. Whether one enjoy risking their dogs in some "pest control" activity or not, all animals should be respected as living beings and the hog is still defending himself inside a bay pen. Well, some get their tusks cut so it is not that they can defend themselves much.
I understand that respecting an animal is a concept not many gets these days, always nice to see dog owners missing it, and others being bothered if it is brought up. Good grief.

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Re: Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

Postby jamielvsaustin » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:10 am

Red what would you suggest they do to determine if the dog will be good at hog hunting? Or are you totally against it? I'm not trying to stir the pot, I'm just curious to know what you think a good alternative is.

My dogs will never be hog hunters; I've never met hog hunting dogs so I'm not familiar with these types of situations in the least.

About a year ago we went to a friend's BBQ, he was cooking up a hog that he raised and killed. When he tried to kill the hog the first shot didn't work. I don't remember the exact number of times it took to kill the hog (and I wasn't there for that part) but I remember thinking that these must be difficult animals to kill. I'd imagine if a dog can help a hunter make that kill a little bit easier and the kill is legit-not just yay this was fun-than what's wrong?

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Re: Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

Postby MikeZev » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:59 pm

Thanks Leslie!

I am certainly of the belief that practicing anything will lead to improvement. I understan cdthat its common practice too - we've all seen the youtube vids of pups being Schooled on hogs. I guess I have more of a moral objection to baiting a captive animal. I know nothing about the process but can a dog actually be "taught" to hold a hog a certain way? Or do they figure it out after getting tossed a few times? Why not train them in the field? Plus if the never get to hit a boar with tusks, they'll never know how to deal with them..

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Re: Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

Postby Pit Chick » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:42 pm

I'm sure some hunters back in the day and today just toss dogs out in the field against a tusked 300lbs hog and expect them to know what to do. And I'm sure those sorts of hunters go through a lot of dogs. I'd rather see them train dogs in a controlled setting to build the dogs' confidence and help them learn how to properly handle a hog without getting gored their first time out. You can't really "train" them where and how to bite a hog, that's a trial and error thing they learn on their own. Much like you can't train a Pit Bull how to fight properly. They each have their own style and learn on their own. So maybe it's more like conditioning than training.

In my own way I feel bad for any animal that has to die. I feel bad when my ferrets kill a mouse, but they enjoy it and it's a good meal for them. Circle of life.

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Re: Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

Postby snikles » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:08 pm

Pit Chick wrote:I'm sure some hunters back in the day and today just toss dogs out in the field against a tusked 300lbs hog and expect them to know what to do. And I'm sure those sorts of hunters go through a lot of dogs. I'd rather see them train dogs in a controlled setting to build the dogs' confidence and help them learn how to properly handle a hog without getting gored their first time out. You can't really "train" them where and how to bite a hog, that's a trial and error thing they learn on their own. Much like you can't train a Pit Bull how to fight properly. They each have their own style and learn on their own. So maybe it's more like conditioning than training.

In my own way I feel bad for any animal that has to die. I feel bad when my ferrets kill a mouse, but they enjoy it and it's a good meal for them. Circle of life.


I don't think people are concerned with the hogs that killed cleanly, but that hog in the pen is basically spending its life being tortured by dogs without the saving grace of a clean kill that a wild hog would get in a real hunt.

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Re: Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

Postby bahamutt99 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:52 pm

MikeZev wrote:Why not train them in the field?


I shall echo what most have said with the disclaimer that I've never hunted hog. But as I understand it, it would be dangerous to take an untried dog into that kind of situation. Adult hogs can kill a human, so relying on a green dog to do a job its never been trained for is probably like skipping flight school and putting the pilot hopeful right in the cockpit where lives hang in the balance. Even if you took an experienced catch dog to school the newbie, there would be no guarantee that the new dog wouldn't hinder them as opposed to helping them. You mentioned bait dogs. To use a historical comparison, pen training seems to me like its more like using a roll dog that would teach a match prospect rather than killing them outright. The bait dog comparison would make sense if they were teaching a dog to hunt feral hogs by putting them in with farm-raised pink piglets.

Considering this topic generally, I can see both sides. I don't think most hog hunters would turn to a rescue in search of potential hunting dogs, but I could see why someone with the right kind of rescue dog might want to try hunting with them. I always try to remember that there are many, many different kinds of dog-owning homes, and lots of differences in the human race. The matter of hunting is a matter of differing opinions and backgrounds. I don't see it as being something that can be qualified as completely good or evil. Its part of many peoples' heritage, and an accepted part of life for some.

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Re: Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

Postby Pit Chick » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:06 pm

:goodpost: and there you have it.

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Re: Hog Hunting--too dangerous for rescue dogs?

Postby Red » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:14 pm

Since the comparison with dogs that were schooled was made....dog fighting is also in people's heritage and plenty of accepted, yet it is cruelty to animals. The comparison was also made by those who tried to make this "sport" illegal and it seems pretty fitting.


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