To much protien?

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Luetya
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To much protien?

Postby Luetya » Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:32 pm

I recently started switching Clyde from Canidae to Taste of the Wild. He seems to really like it, get's really excited about meal time now.

TOTW has 32% crude protien as apposed to 24% in Canidae. I had thoght this was a good thing as the posts here seem to tote high protien, meat and veggie, no grain foods. But my husband mentioned that when he had been on his workout kick he had learned that to much protien can turn into fat if you're not active enough. He thinks Clyde is gaining weight. I havn't seen it yet and when I last weighed him he was still at 62 lbs, same as he was on Canidae. I take him on a three hour walk ( hour and a half if we go on bike instead of foot) three times a week and we recently built him a flirt pole I plan on using 15 minutes a day. He gets 2 cups of kibble a day. Should I be worried about weight gain?

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InBearsMemory
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Re:

Postby InBearsMemory » Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:10 pm

Your husband is absolutely right. Too much protein is not good either. Once the body used his share of protein it will use the excess as an energy fuel. If there is nothing happening that would burn up the energy the body will store it as fat.
If you exercise your dog on a regular basis you don't have to worry. I wouldn't recommend a high protein diet though if your dog is a couch potato.

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Postby maximusflys » Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:39 pm

InBearsMemory wrote:Your husband is absolutely right. Too much protein is not good either. Once the body used his share of protein it will use the excess as an energy fuel. If there is nothing happening that would burn up the energy the body will store it as fat.
If you exercise your dog on a regular basis you don't have to worry. I wouldn't recommend a high protein diet though if your dog is a couch potato.


That is untrue. Higher protein percentages does not make a dog fat, and until you show me other wise, I will consider that YOUR OWN opinion. Now with high protein dog foods comes high fat as well and THAT will make a dog fat not the protein. Dogs are not humans so they cannot be compared as we will convert protein into fat.

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Postby BrokenAquarian » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:44 pm

Isn't excess protien bad for the kidneys?

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Postby BrokenAquarian » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:44 pm

*ProtEIn :oops:

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Postby maximusflys » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:46 pm

BrokenAquarian wrote:Isn't excess protien bad for the kidneys?


Nope, but pibbles have lockjaw :))

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Postby BrokenAquarian » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:50 pm

maximusflys wrote:
BrokenAquarian wrote:Isn't excess protien bad for the kidneys?


Nope, but pibbles have lockjaw :))


What the hell am I thinking of that has to do with proteins and organs? Isn't there something bad that they test for by protein levels in the kidneys?

Nevermind - my brain is wandering again lol

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Postby maximusflys » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:53 pm

Unless, the dog already has kidney issues high protein doesn't affect anything. It is a big myth that has gone around the forums for awhile now.

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Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:58 pm

YES, protein can turn into fat!!!

Protein is made up of many different types of amino acids. A large percentage of those amino acids are converted to sugar (is it the Krebs cycle or the other one from biochemistry?) when the body does not use them in their natural form. Once converted to sugar, if they are not immediately burned, they will then be converted to fat.

Fat is much more easily stored as fat, and carbohydrates are much more easily converted to fat, but in the end, calories are calories and YES, your dog can get fat on protein!!!

However, in the case of the taste of the wild food, I'm sure you will find that the percentage of fat is also increased, as well as the total calories. If your pup is getting fat it is not the result of the protein percentage, it is a result of just plain too much food.

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Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:02 pm

BrokenAquarian wrote:Isn't excess protien bad for the kidneys?


Excess protein is not bad for healthy kidneys, but it IS bad for damaged or diseased kidneys. Kidneys that are damaged are usually over-worked, and the amino acids that are not converted to sugar are converted to nitrogenous wastes that the kidneys must filter out of the blood. Lower protein foods have been scientifically proven to increase the lifespan of renally challenged pets, but high protein levels have not been shown to have any detriment to renal health when kidneys are functioning normally.

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Postby maximusflys » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:10 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:YES, protein can turn into fat!!!

Protein is made up of many different types of amino acids. A large percentage of those amino acids are converted to sugar (is it the Krebs cycle or the other one from biochemistry?) when the body does not use them in their natural form. Once converted to sugar, if they are not immediately burned, they will then be converted to fat.

Fat is much more easily stored as fat, and carbohydrates are much more easily converted to fat, but in the end, calories are calories and YES, your dog can get fat on protein!!!

However, in the case of the taste of the wild food, I'm sure you will find that the percentage of fat is also increased, as well as the total calories. If your pup is getting fat it is not the result of the protein percentage, it is a result of just plain too much food.


I agree, that anything put into the body that has calories and is not burned will turn into fat. I was replying to Inbearsmemory saying that high protein diet will make a dog fat which I disagree. Look at how many dogs are this country are overweight. It's not from high protein diets, it's from lack of exercise.

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Postby pblove » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:29 pm

actually protein restriction is not necessary for dogs in renal failure either, but phosphorus restriction is necessary according to many articles/studies I have been reading
Here are a few sources :r


Is a Low Protein Diet Necessary or Desirable?
Following are links to a series of articles and studies on the roles of protein and phosphorus in the diet of dogs with kidney failure. I have provided excerpts from these articles, but I would encourage you to read them in their entirety if you are dealing with a dog with kidney disease, as many of them contain a great deal more information than I will show here.
Dogs with kidney problems by Dr. Lucy Pinkston, D.V.M.
"Because by-products of protein digestion are the main toxins that need to be excreted by the kidneys, an obvious assumption might be that all one needs to do is to cut out the protein and the kidneys wouldn't have any more hard work to do. . . . There is significant evidence, however, that the daily protein requirements actually increase slightly for dogs in chronic renal failure. Therefore, severely restricting the protein for such a dog is likely to result in protein malnutrition, in spite of the fact that the levels of blood urea nitrogen, or BUN (the primary by-product of protein metabolism) would be correspondingly lower." This article contains a great deal more useful information in easy to read format.

Are High Protein Diets Harmful to a Dog's Kidneys? from the Veterinary Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc.
"The myth that high-protein diets are harmful to kidneys probably started because, in the past, patients with kidney disease were commonly placed on low-protein (and thus low-nitrogen) diets. Now we often put them on a diet that is not necessarily very low in protein but contains protein that is more digestible so there are fewer nitrogen by-products."

The Mythology of Protein Restriction for Dogs with Reduced Renal Function by Kenneth C. Bovee, DVM, MMedSc
"Morris subsequently developed, produced, and sold a low-protein diet, KD, for dogs with renal failure. He and others were influenced by the erroneous work hypertrophy concept for urea excretion advanced by Addis. While experimental or clinical data were never published to support the value of this or other diets, the concept was broadly accepted without challenge in the veterinary literature." This article talks about the history of protein restriction, and about 10 recent experimental studies that have failed to provide evidence of the benefit of reduced dietary protein to influence the course of renal failure. This report is no longer available online, but I have a copy that I can send to anyone who is interested in reading more, just email me (contact info at bottom of page) and ask for Bovee.pdf.
Also see Influence of Dietary Protein on Renal Function in Dogs by the same author, which concludes, "These results do not support the hypothesis that feeding a high protein diet had a significant adverse effect on renal function or morphology."

Nutrition and Renal Function from the Purina Research Report
"Dietary Protein and Renal Function: Results of multiple studies indicated that there were no adverse effects of the high protein diets." This report also includes information on metabolic acidosis and on the beneficial effects of omega-3 essential fatty acids in patients with chronic renal failure. The complete reports on each of the three studies mentioned in this report are no longer available online, but I have copies of them that I could send to anyone who is interested in reading more, as follows: "Effects of Dietary Lipids on Renal Function in Dogs and Cats" (ask for Brown.pdf); "Effects of Dietary Protein Intake on Renal Functions" (ask for Finco.pdf); and "Acid-Base, Electrolytes, and Renal Failure" (ask for Polzin.pdf).

Feeding the Older Dog from the SpeedyVet Clinical Nutrition Library
"The assumption was that low-protein diets retarded the progression of renal degeneration. This assumption was disproved, using partially nephrectomised dogs, which showed no uraemic signs and had reduced but stable renal function for 48 months. These dogs did better on moderate-protein diets than on low-protein diets. There is no direct evidence that high protein intake damages canine kidneys or that reducing protein intake in dogs with renal dysfunction results in preservation of either renal structure or function."

Dietary Management of Chronic Polyuric Renal Failure from the SpeedyVet Clinical Nutrition Library
"Dietary protein restriction improves the clinical signs and quality of life of uraemic animals with both naturally occurring and experimentally induced renal failure. . . . However it is highly questionable whether protein restriction is appropriate in the azotaemic, but non-uraemic patient. The main risk of protein restriction is protein deficiency. The protein and amino acid requirements of dogs and cats with chronic renal failure have not been established, but may well be increased. . . . The main justification for protein restriction early in the course of renal failure would be if it was proven to slow progression of disease. The data that are available do not support this case in dogs. Dietary protein has been shown to affect renal haemodynamics in the dog, however, moderate protein restriction does not alleviate glomerular hypertension, hyperfiltration and hypertrophy. . . . Thus there is no evidence that moderate protein restriction slows the progression of renal failure in dogs, and it is not recommended in dogs which are not uraemic."

Demystifying Myths About Protein from Today's Breeder Magazine
"In contrast, research over the past 10 years or so has shown that protein does not harm the kidney of dogs. In studies conducted at the University of Georgia in the early 1990s, both in dogs with chronic kidney failure and in older dogs with only one kidney, protein levels as high as 34 percent caused no ill effects. . . . In other studies, David S. Kronfeld, Ph.D., indicated that compared with high- or low-protein diets, moderate-protein diets, those with up to 34 percent protein, had no ill effects in dogs with chronic renal failure and were associated with general improvement."

Fortify The Food Bowl For The Aging Canine by Susan Thorpe-Vargas, Ph.D. and John C. Cargill, M.A., M.B.A., M.S.
"Because of certain biochemical requirements, the healthy geriatric dog requires about 50 percent more protein than the young adult, and depending on the quality of the protein, it should make up 20 percent to 30 percent of the total calories ingested. . . . Until recently, protein restriction was recommended in an effort to protect renal function. Limiting protein fails to prevent urinary filtration problems . . . Indeed, newer research shows dietary protein is not detrimental to kidney function. On the contrary, protein restriction can result in impaired wound healing, diminished immune function and lowered enzyme activities and cellular turnover. Those dogs with impaired renal function do better with dietary phosphorus restriction; however, limiting this mineral is unlikely to delay the onset of renal disease or to benefit healthy geriatric dogs."

Dietary Management for Clinical Disorders in Dogs from the Journal of Indian Veterinary Association, Kerala
"Recent research on dietary protein and the kidney has shown that
o dietary protein does not cause renal failure
o dietary protein does not appear to be involved in the progression of chronic renal failure
o inappropriate restriction of dietary protein may actually have an adverse effect on the normal or compromised kidney"

Kidney Failure from the Iams nutrition symposium
“'For years, physicians and veterinarians have treated renal failure by reducing protein levels in diets,' said Gregory Reinhart PhD, an Iams researcher. 'After working with leading universities, we have now found that restricting protein in a dog's diet may do more harm than good by potentially putting the companion animal at risk of protein malnutrition.'”

Managing a Renal Crisis by Martha S. Gearhart, DVM
". . . at least one study has taken several groups of dogs in kidney failure and fed them diets that varied in protein level and phosphorus level. The groups with severely restricted phosphorus lived longer than the groups with normal or high levels of phosphorus. The protein intake made no difference at all in longevity. . . .
"It is important to remember that phosphorus is more important than protein -- feeding vegetables or salt-free crackers to a dog in kidney failure will not add protein but it will add phosphorus."

Dietary Protein and the Kidney by Patricia Schenck, DVM, PhD, Veterinary Nutritionist
"High protein diets cause an increase in blood flow through the kidney (glomerular filtration rate). The myth has been that if the dietary protein is restricted, this will make the kidney work less, and will ‘spare' the kidney from damage. Thus in the past, many have recommended low protein diets to ‘protect' a dog from developing kidney disease. This has been the focus of considerable research over the last 10 years. There has been no scientific evidence to support this theory. The feeding of low levels of dietary protein are NOT protective against the development of kidney disease.
"Reducing dietary protein in the older pet will not protect them from the development of renal disease. In fact, reducing the protein in the older dog's diet may have adverse effects. As pets age, their ability to utilize nutrients decreases. The older pet actually requires a higher level of protein to maintain its body stores of protein than does the younger adult dog. . . .
"Dietary protein restriction is appropriate in renal failure when the disease has become severe. Restriction of protein is based on the appearance of clinical signs. It has been recommended to start protein restriction when the dog's BUN (blood urea nitrogen) is greater than 80 mg/dL [28.6 mmol/L], and the serum creatinine is greater than 2.5 mg/dL [221 µmol/L]. Both BUN and serum creatinine are good indicators of kidney function. Protein is restricted in an attempt to keep the BUN below 60 mg/dL [21.4 mmol/L]. Dietary protein may need to be gradually decreased over time as renal failure progresses."

Effects of low phosphorus, medium protein diets in dogs with chronic renal failure
"In this study, 60 dogs with early CRF were fed either Medium Protein Diet, (CMP group) or a home-made diet (HMD group) which respectively contained 0.36% phosphorus, 27% protein, and 0.38% phosphorus, 21.5% protein on a dry matter basis, over a 28 week period. . . .
"From the results of this study, it can be concluded that many dogs with mild to moderate CRF can benefit from early diagnosis of the condition and dietary management using a diet with a low phosphorus and moderate protein content."

Dietary Protein by Dr. Jeff Vidt, specialist in Chinese Shar-Pei and Renal Amyloidosis

"Increased levels of dietary protein do not seem to change rate of progression of kidney failure. Protein levels in the diet do not seem to affect mortality, rate of progression of uremia or the development of kidney lesions.
Decreased protein levels in the diet may impair immune responses, decrease hemo-globin levels, cause anemia, decrease total protein levels and result in muscle wasting. . . .
Dietary protein levels do not appear to be involved in the progression of renal disease or play a role in the prevention of kidney failure. . . .
When the BUN is greater than 75mg/dl [26.8 mmol/L] and/or signs of uremia develop, moderate protein restriction is indicated to decrease the BUN and the clinical signs. Phosphorus restriction is also indicated at this time."
Protein Restriction and Kidney Disease Extracts from Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XII, with links to a number of abstracts
"In perhaps the most noted clinical trial examining effects of high protein diet on progression of CRD, groups of dogs diagnosed with CRD were fed either high protein diets or low protein diets. No significant difference was observed in the rate of progression of CRD in the high-protein group compared to the low protein group. Therefore, excess protein in the diet did not appear to compromise renal function even in the presence of high endogenous levels of protein associated with the disease. In fact, on an individual basis some of the CRD dogs in the high protein diet group faired better. This finding was postulated to be associated with the fact that protein is required for cellular repair and function."
Kidney Failure in the Dog and Cat
"Contrary to popular myth, diets rich in protein ("high protein levels") do not cause kidney damage. Research done decades ago indicated that rodent kidneysHigh protein diets do not cause kidney damage. were adversely affected by diets high in protein... and misguided researchers extrapolated that data to apply to the canine. There is no evidence that feeding dogs and cats diets rich in or "high" in protein actually causes kidney damage or disease. Some day this myth will be finally be put to rest. In fact, there is ample research and well documented studies that prove that dogs and cats thrive on diets with levels of protein consistent with a meat-eater's (carnivore) natural prey selection. Read more about protein in dog and cat diets here.

"Additionally,documented research on dogs indicates that reducing dietary protein levels in older dogs may be unwise; however, if kidney damage is already present to the extent that the BUN levels are 75mg/dl or above, some restriction of dietary protein may be beneficial for metabolic reasons... not renal reasons. "...restriction of protein intake does not alter the development of renal lesions nor does it preserve renal function." (See KIRKS VETERINARY THERAPY XIII, Small Animal Practice, W. B. Saunders, page 861). Restricting dietary protein may be helpful to those patients whose BUN levels are rather high and that are already in advanced kidney failure."

Note that the above sites are from very traditional sources, including Purina and Iams. I think Hills is the only company still toeing the "low protein" line. The thinking now is that low protein can actually be harmful, and that a moderate amount of high quality protein is desirable for dogs with kidney disease. In addition, feeding reduced protein to dogs with normal kidneys does not help prevent kidney failure.

See http://lpi.orst.edu/infocenter/minerals/phosphorus/ for (human oriented) information on phosphorus and what excess levels in the blood do.

Also see this letter that I wrote to Hill's in response to their complaints about an article I helped write for the Whole Dog Journal on the myth of low protein diets for dogs with kidney disease.


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Re:

Postby InBearsMemory » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:04 am

maximusflys wrote:
InBearsMemory wrote:Your husband is absolutely right. Too much protein is not good either. Once the body used his share of protein it will use the excess as an energy fuel. If there is nothing happening that would burn up the energy the body will store it as fat.
If you exercise your dog on a regular basis you don't have to worry. I wouldn't recommend a high protein diet though if your dog is a couch potato.


That is untrue. Higher protein percentages does not make a dog fat, and until you show me other wise, I will consider that YOUR OWN opinion. Now with high protein dog foods comes high fat as well and THAT will make a dog fat not the protein. Dogs are not humans so they cannot be compared as we will convert protein into fat.


You can take my contribution for whatever you want but unlike your response mine is based on fact. Thank you.

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Re:

Postby InBearsMemory » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:06 am

maximusflys wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:YES, protein can turn into fat!!!

Protein is made up of many different types of amino acids. A large percentage of those amino acids are converted to sugar (is it the Krebs cycle or the other one from biochemistry?) when the body does not use them in their natural form. Once converted to sugar, if they are not immediately burned, they will then be converted to fat.

Fat is much more easily stored as fat, and carbohydrates are much more easily converted to fat, but in the end, calories are calories and YES, your dog can get fat on protein!!!

However, in the case of the taste of the wild food, I'm sure you will find that the percentage of fat is also increased, as well as the total calories. If your pup is getting fat it is not the result of the protein percentage, it is a result of just plain too much food.


I agree, that anything put into the body that has calories and is not burned will turn into fat. I was replying to Inbearsmemory saying that high protein diet will make a dog fat which I disagree. Look at how many dogs are this country are overweight. It's not from high protein diets, it's from lack of exercise.


Are you actually reading posts? I never said that a high protein diet will make a dog fat, I said that a dog that doesn't burn all that energy will store it as fat.

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Postby starrlamia » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:58 am

let me know if im just talking out of my ass here..

but.. dogs are obligate carnivores, which mean they eat meat.... and meat contains quite a bit of protein... So wouldnt it make sense that they get a high protein diet.. (assuming the protein is from quality sources)?


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