To much protien?

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.
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starrlamia
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Postby starrlamia » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:21 pm

It's really hard to see the dog teeth in those photos, try this one:


http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Dog/dog.htm

This site has some interesting facts about the digestive system and the fact that dogs cannot move their jaws side to side..

http://k9joy.com/RawFoodForDogs/Digesti ... xcerpt.pdf


This Diagram shows a model of canine teeth and it does not represent the back molars being flat like they would in an omnivore
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/clientED/anat ... _teeth.jpg

There also seems to be a lot of food allergies/sensitivities in Canines and I wonder if this is because they are not used to digesting so much plant matter. The same way there is a high occurence of lactose intolerance in humans because we simply werent designed to digest and utilize cows milk.

I think the best thing Ive come across is that dogs are not omnivores, they are opportunistic carnivores. They eat primarily meat but will at times eat plant matter. I dont believe that makes them omnivores though..

Anyway have to run home from work!
Interesting discussion :)

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rgyoung777
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Postby rgyoung777 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:02 pm

I think the difference between the dentition of obligate carnivores and those carnivores with omnivorous tendencies becomes really apparent when you compare felids and canids.

Here are some photos (obviously, these are not to scale!):
Image
L. canadensis (Lynx).

Compare the molars and premolars on the lynx with those on the canids below:

Image
C. lupus (Gray Wolf).

Image
Domestic Dog.

You can see that the canids actually do have flattened areas on their premolars, which felids clearly lack.

Felids are obligate carnivores. Dogs and other canids may not be as omnivorous as bears, but their dentition does suggest the capability to eat more than just animal protein. The way they evolved into the domestic creatures we have today also suggests this. Canids (especially the domestic dog) are scavengers, and as such, they clearly have the ability to consume a variety of food types. They are definitely opportunistic feeders!

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starrlamia
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Postby starrlamia » Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:32 pm

Of course.. and as a more scavengous creature then say a cat they would have a wider diet. But it is still obvious that the majority of their diet is meat. So it makes sense to feed them a higher protein diet rather then one that has more fillers and other products, as they would have quite a smaller amount of vegitation in their diet naturally.

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Postby pblove » Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:52 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
BrokenAquarian wrote:Isn't excess protien bad for the kidneys?


Excess protein is not bad for healthy kidneys, but it IS bad for damaged or diseased kidneys. Kidneys that are damaged are usually over-worked, and the amino acids that are not converted to sugar are converted to nitrogenous wastes that the kidneys must filter out of the blood. Lower protein foods have been scientifically proven to increase the lifespan of renally challenged pets, but high protein levels have not been shown to have any detriment to renal health when kidneys are functioning normally.

Misskiwi did you see the info I posted about renal failure and protein?(back on page 1 )
why do some vets say lower the protien and othes say not to lower the protein, but lower the phosphorus when a dog is in renal failure ?
Having just lost a dog to renal failure I am really concerned about this conflicting information.

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Postby BrokenAquarian » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:40 pm

Not all plant matter is equal.

Corn is not the same as a leafy green vegetable. Corn is a sugery grain.
Dogs can eat leafy greens(grass included) until they're blue in the face.
Wheat, Corn and Rice are in a whole different group.

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starrlamia
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Postby starrlamia » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:03 pm

Yup, but a lot of dog foods on the market to have those things in them, corn, wheat and rice.
Even canidae has rice.

Though dogs could eat leafy greens until they are blue in the face I dont think they would be getting enough nutrients from it

hehe, I keep picturing a dog eating spinach and turning blue :P

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starrlamia
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Postby starrlamia » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:17 pm

So Im going to prove myself wrong here. But hey Im not too big of a person to do that.

I just talked to my bff who is my go-to person for all things animal. She has her BoS in animal biology and took a pet nutrition course.
She says that dogs are fine with lower protein diets, though she still recommends buying food that dont have fillers such as wheat, corn and rice, ingredients are important. She says that low quality/cheap vs high quality/expensive pretty much equal themselves out cost wise as you will feed more on a lower quality diet. Though she does recommend a lower protein/higher filler content for dogs that eat like horses and dont feel as sated on the higher quality/less feed foods.
She personally would go the higher protein route, but she said that its not a big deal as long as the food is of good quality and contains the appropriate nutrients.

This is me putting my foot in my mouth! :oops:
lol fun discussion though :D

ps i will still stick with my high protein diet... the way my pup runs im not scared of him getting fat in the least! haha

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Misskiwi67
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Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:34 pm

pblove wrote:[
Misskiwi did you see the info I posted about renal failure and protein?(back on page 1 )
why do some vets say lower the protien and othes say not to lower the protein, but lower the phosphorus when a dog is in renal failure ?
Having just lost a dog to renal failure I am really concerned about this conflicting information.


I actually did not read it. I've had a couple renal failure dogs come through the clinic recently and I've been reading nutritional information until I'm blue in the face. The information is exactly that... conflicting.

Some seem to think that decreasing the protein is best, others seem to think just phosphorus is enough (but difficult because protein and phosphorus often go together). When you read the textbooks, decreasing the protein is also important.

From what I've seen, low protein (high quality protein with meticulously balanced amino acid profile) diets designed for renal patients DO increase lifespan, and since those are the diets that have been proven, those are what I recommend for renal patients. I would never recommend them for any other pet.

Its much like the raw diet... yes, we see lots of pets do very well, but nobody has actually made a stable raw diet and proven that it works. I haven't seen a high protein (higher than 18%) low phosphorus diet study. Granted I haven't looked either because most of the renal diets follow the same rules.

I've been getting most of my nutritional information from an online book produced by Royal Canin called the Encyclopedia of Canine Clinical Nutrition. It is well referenced and can be found on the www.ivis.org website. I don't know if you have to be a vet to register for that website (I registered years ago as a vet student), but if you can, I highly recommend taking the time to read it. Great info, and its the latest and greatest with new chapters being published within the past couple months and more still to come.

http://www.ivis.org/advances/rc/chap08p ... r.asp?LA=1

If you cannot access the link, PM me and I will send you the Renal Disease chapter if I can...

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Postby Luetya » Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:13 am

Speaking of eating grass. I've heard that dogs do this when they have an upset stomach, true or no?

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Postby BrokenAquarian » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:26 am

True and false.

It depends on the type of grass they are eating. New, soft grass is eaten because it tastes good and does not make them sick.

The rough, thick blades are eaten to irritate the stomach - which results in vomit :)

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Postby dawnapbt » Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:43 pm

from a biochemical standpoint, just about any "calorie" can become fat. If your body takes in more calories than it expends, it stores the excess as fat. Carbs, fats, and proteins....

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Postby TuckerPup! » Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:12 pm

pblove wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:
BrokenAquarian wrote:Isn't excess protien bad for the kidneys?


Excess protein is not bad for healthy kidneys, but it IS bad for damaged or diseased kidneys. Kidneys that are damaged are usually over-worked, and the amino acids that are not converted to sugar are converted to nitrogenous wastes that the kidneys must filter out of the blood. Lower protein foods have been scientifically proven to increase the lifespan of renally challenged pets, but high protein levels have not been shown to have any detriment to renal health when kidneys are functioning normally.

Misskiwi did you see the info I posted about renal failure and protein?(back on page 1 )
why do some vets say lower the protien and othes say not to lower the protein, but lower the phosphorus when a dog is in renal failure ?
Having just lost a dog to renal failure I am really concerned about this conflicting information.


My vet has told us NOT to lower the protein in the diet of our dog (Lyme's disease, chronic renal failure case) but to concentrate on high quality protein that is LOW in phosphorous and to use phosphorous binders (pure calcium like eggshell). I think with renal failure it really depends on what the blood tests and UA results tell the vet. There's no truly right answer for every dog because there are so many variables in every renal case.

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jlphilli
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Postby jlphilli » Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:31 pm

Cats are obligate carnivores.

Dogs are omnivores, but opportunistic carnivores. Dogs are more omnivorous than cats because of their ancestral tendencies to be more scavengers than hunters. Since cats were 99.9% hunters, that is why they evolved to be obligate carnivores.

High protein dog foods are useless for dogs that do not get adequate exercise. That is not to say that high carbohydrate dog foods are any better, but a happy balance between the two is best for the "average" couch potato.

Recently there have been better alternatives for less active dogs like EVO reduced fat (which I don't particularly like b/c of the dry matter ash content), and Wellness CORE reduced fat (I do like because it has a moderately high amount of protein and is low in fat).

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Postby merriterrier » Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:18 pm

starrlamia wrote:hehe, I keep picturing a dog eating spinach and turning blue :P


My dogs snack on a wide variety of fresh fruits/veggies including spinach and lettuce and they have yet to turn blue. lol (though I get your point) They love their veggies; Django will choose a green bean over a cookie.

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Postby maximusflys » Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:59 pm

jlphilli wrote:Cats are obligate carnivores.

Dogs are omnivores, but opportunistic carnivores. Dogs are more omnivorous than cats because of their ancestral tendencies to be more scavengers than hunters. Since cats were 99.9% hunters, that is why they evolved to be obligate carnivores.

High protein dog foods are useless for dogs that do not get adequate exercise. That is not to say that high carbohydrate dog foods are any better, but a happy balance between the two is best for the "average" couch potato.

Recently there have been better alternatives for less active dogs like EVO reduced fat (which I don't particularly like b/c of the dry matter ash content), and Wellness CORE reduced fat (I do like because it has a moderately high amount of protein and is low in fat).


EVO reduced fat has a higer protein than the normal EVO so how is that better for less active dogs when you just stated that high protein foods are useless for dogs that do not get adequate exercise?


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