THE MYTH of High Protein Dogfood

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.
User avatar
angus
Bully Lover 4 Life
Posts: 1093
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:13 pm

THE MYTH of High Protein Dogfood

Postby angus » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:48 pm

This article was written by Cali Jack and crossposted with permission.


This question was posed on my private board, but it is important enough to the health of so many dogs that I thought I would post a version of it here. Many people are under the mistaken belief that "high protein" = "good for dogs" but THIS IS FALSE.

These people argue that what a dog eats in nature (raw meat) is "high in protein," and so their argument is that their kibbled dogfeed should therefore be "high in protein" too. I am going to prove why this is completely false and poor thinking.


1 lb of Raw Flesh:
Water: 70% (11.2 oz)
Protein: 24% (3.8 oz)


The absolute, indisputable fact of the matter is, if you feed 1 pound (16 oz) of raw meat, that 11.2 of those ounces you're feeding (70%) are actually nothing but water, not protein. The fact is, only 3.84 ounces (24%) of the full pound of meat is in fact solid protein mass. The greatest percentage constituent of raw flesh is water (70%), and this water assists the dog in processing the mere 24% of its actual protein content. Further, there are also natural enzymes inherent in raw meats to further aid the animal in processing and digestion that are lacking in dried kibbles.


1 lb of Innova Evo:
Water: 7% (1.2 oz)
Protein: 44% (6.9 oz)


By contrast, super-high-protein feeds like Innova Evo have this water/protein proportion completey bass-ackwards. If you feed 1 pound of Innova Evo, 6.9 ounces of it (44%) are protein, which is nearly twice the actual protein that's in the same weight of raw meat, and yet the dry dog food provides only 1.2 oz of moisture (7%) to aid the dog in digestion. At the same time, super-high-protein feeds like Evo and Nature's Logic offer no natural digestive enzymes to assist the animal in processing the meal either. This means the animal gets twice what he needs in (dry, nasty) protein, with hardly any moisture provided, while at the same time he gets no natural enzymes to help him process this food.

If anyone believes it is "healthy" for an animal to struggle like hell to process its fuel, and to become dehydrated in the process on a daily basis, then I feel sorry for their dogs. Anyone who feeds a super-high-protein feed will notice that a dramatic difference in how much their dogs will have to drink water, compared to how little they have to drink water when fed raw.

In fact, if you think about it, since 1 lb of raw meat provides 11 oz of water to process only 3.8 oz of actual solid protein matter ... this is a 3-1 water/protein ratio. Well, since 1 lb of Innova Evo provides twice this protein matter (6.8 oz), then in order to get the same 3-1 water/protein ratio as natural raw flesh it would have to provide 20.4 oz of water ... yet this feed provides only 1.2 oz of the water. This means the dog is only getting 5% of the water he should be getting, to process this (dry, nasty) protein mass by comparison to a dog eating raw flesh. This is why dogs fed high-protein dry kibble drink their asses off, to make up for this terrible moisture deficit. And yet even then the poor dog still doesn't get the natural enzymes inherent in raw flesh.

So many people simply don't take the time to study the natural composition of raw feeds. If they did, they would realize how important MOISTURE is to the whole digestive process, to the body's ability to process and utilize its food, and they would realize that these high-protein dry dog feeds are nothing but manufacturers "keeping up with the Joneses" in trying to provide "higher" and "higher" protein levels, just to get a certain market share from idiot customers, who always subscribe to the "more is better" philosophy ... but who in fact really have no knowledge of nutrition.

The truth of the matter is, the single most important factor in a protein source isn't its "highness" in content, it's its BIOLOGICAL AVAILABILITY ... which means the ability of a protein source to be easily-processed and assimilated by the body. This means no stress to the body and complete absorption and use to the body.

44% protein in a bone-dry kibble is NOT a "biologically-available" source of protein; it is an over-burdern to the body of over-dried, over-processed protein, with an unnaturally-low water deficit combined with an unnaturally-high protein excess, and with no natural enzymes provided to help with this bass-ackward imbalance either. And as such, the people who feed this chocolate to their dogs do them a tremendous disservice over time.

There is no reason to feed a kibble over 24% protein. If a dog needs more weight then you add FAT, not protein, to his diet to help him gain that weight. If your dog is working hard and stressing his system, you do not feed it "high protein" in the form of over-processed, bone-dry kibble to give him his extra building blocks ... instead you give him RAW, NATURAL, HIGHLY-DIGESTIBLE proteins that he will be able to use every bit of, because of its ease to digest, while at the same time not stressing his system in the process.

Anyway, I could go on forever, but the people who listen to this will have happier, healthier dogs.

Jack

User avatar
Deniselynn
BANNED
Posts: 19244
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:34 pm
Location: Home of the OG, Al Capone
Contact:

Postby Deniselynn » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:51 pm

:clap Jack, thank you for posting such an informative article. I have always wondered about high protein dry diets and how it impacts a dog's body.

User avatar
Beowulf
Addicted to PBF
Posts: 7035
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 10:04 am
Location: Texas

Postby Beowulf » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:05 pm

This is kind of on topic. :huh?: Since I started feeding my dogs BARF, heavy on non-red meat, they hardly drink water at ALL. Before, when they were on Beneful, they were always thirsty. I was constantly filling up the water bowl. Now, even though the water is fresh and always available, they hardly ever drink it. Which means to me that they are getting plenty of liquid through their food. Which supports the article.

User avatar
Misskiwi67
Addicted to PBF
Posts: 10498
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:37 pm
Location: Iowa City, IA

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:18 pm

Ugh... the enzymes myth surfaces again.

If there are enzymes in protein that aid in digestion... then why doesn't meat digest itself on your countertop??

Enzymes are protein as well, and are digested right along with the protein in the stomach. Even if such enzymes did exist, they certainly do NOT aid in digestion...

I have no comment on the rest of the article.

User avatar
TigerLady
Adolescent Bully
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:10 pm

Re: THE MYTH of High Protein Dogfood

Postby TigerLady » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:30 pm

angus wrote:This article was written by Cali Jack and crossposted with permission.


This question was posed on my private board, but it is important enough to the health of so many dogs that I thought I would post a version of it here. Many people are under the mistaken belief that "high protein" = "good for dogs" but THIS IS FALSE.

These people argue that what a dog eats in nature (raw meat) is "high in protein," and so their argument is that their kibbled dogfeed should therefore be "high in protein" too. I am going to prove why this is completely false and poor thinking.


1 lb of Raw Flesh:
Water: 70% (11.2 oz)
Protein: 24% (3.8 oz)


The absolute, indisputable fact of the matter is, if you feed 1 pound (16 oz) of raw meat, that 11.2 of those ounces you're feeding (70%) are actually nothing but water, not protein. The fact is, only 3.84 ounces (24%) of the full pound of meat is in fact solid protein mass. The greatest percentage constituent of raw flesh is water (70%), and this water assists the dog in processing the mere 24% of its actual protein content. Further, there are also natural enzymes inherent in raw meats to further aid the animal in processing and digestion that are lacking in dried kibbles.


1 lb of Innova Evo:
Water: 7% (1.2 oz)
Protein: 44% (6.9 oz)


By contrast, super-high-protein feeds like Innova Evo have this water/protein proportion completey bass-ackwards. If you feed 1 pound of Innova Evo, 6.9 ounces of it (44%) are protein, which is nearly twice the actual protein that's in the same weight of raw meat, and yet the dry dog food provides only 1.2 oz of moisture (7%) to aid the dog in digestion. At the same time, super-high-protein feeds like Evo and Nature's Logic offer no natural digestive enzymes to assist the animal in processing the meal either. This means the animal gets twice what he needs in (dry, nasty) protein, with hardly any moisture provided, while at the same time he gets no natural enzymes to help him process this food.

If anyone believes it is "healthy" for an animal to struggle like hell to process its fuel, and to become dehydrated in the process on a daily basis, then I feel sorry for their dogs. Anyone who feeds a super-high-protein feed will notice that a dramatic difference in how much their dogs will have to drink water, compared to how little they have to drink water when fed raw.

In fact, if you think about it, since 1 lb of raw meat provides 11 oz of water to process only 3.8 oz of actual solid protein matter ... this is a 3-1 water/protein ratio. Well, since 1 lb of Innova Evo provides twice this protein matter (6.8 oz), then in order to get the same 3-1 water/protein ratio as natural raw flesh it would have to provide 20.4 oz of water ... yet this feed provides only 1.2 oz of the water. This means the dog is only getting 5% of the water he should be getting, to process this (dry, nasty) protein mass by comparison to a dog eating raw flesh. This is why dogs fed high-protein dry kibble drink their asses off, to make up for this terrible moisture deficit. And yet even then the poor dog still doesn't get the natural enzymes inherent in raw flesh.

So many people simply don't take the time to study the natural composition of raw feeds. If they did, they would realize how important MOISTURE is to the whole digestive process, to the body's ability to process and utilize its food, and they would realize that these high-protein dry dog feeds are nothing but manufacturers "keeping up with the Joneses" in trying to provide "higher" and "higher" protein levels, just to get a certain market share from idiot customers, who always subscribe to the "more is better" philosophy ... but who in fact really have no knowledge of nutrition.

The truth of the matter is, the single most important factor in a protein source isn't its "highness" in content, it's its BIOLOGICAL AVAILABILITY ... which means the ability of a protein source to be easily-processed and assimilated by the body. This means no stress to the body and complete absorption and use to the body.

44% protein in a bone-dry kibble is NOT a "biologically-available" source of protein; it is an over-burdern to the body of over-dried, over-processed protein, with an unnaturally-low water deficit combined with an unnaturally-high protein excess, and with no natural enzymes provided to help with this bass-ackward imbalance either. And as such, the people who feed this chocolate to their dogs do them a tremendous disservice over time.

There is no reason to feed a kibble over 24% protein. If a dog needs more weight then you add FAT, not protein, to his diet to help him gain that weight. If your dog is working hard and stressing his system, you do not feed it "high protein" in the form of over-processed, bone-dry kibble to give him his extra building blocks ... instead you give him RAW, NATURAL, HIGHLY-DIGESTIBLE proteins that he will be able to use every bit of, because of its ease to digest, while at the same time not stressing his system in the process.

Anyway, I could go on forever, but the people who listen to this will have happier, healthier dogs.

Jack


Amen and thank you. Validates one of my my reasons for feeding prey model raw.

~Tiger

User avatar
starrlamia
Addicted to PBF
Posts: 7375
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:59 pm
Location: Canada

Postby starrlamia » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:16 pm

my question is how much raw do they eat a day in comparison to dry kibble? Raw is definantly the way to go, but if they eat a less amount of kibble and drink more water wouldnt that add up to the same thing?
is it 2% of the body weight for raw? if i had a scale id measure the kibble serving size they recommend and see the comparison...
A wild dog or raw fed dog would get most of it's water from the meat source, as drinking water isnt always easy to find, but Ive read studies that show wolves will gorge themselves on food should the opportunity lend itself to them..

User avatar
TigerLady
Adolescent Bully
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:10 pm

Postby TigerLady » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:37 pm

starrlamia wrote:my question is how much raw do they eat a day in comparison to dry kibble? Raw is definantly the way to go, but if they eat a less amount of kibble and drink more water wouldnt that add up to the same thing?
is it 2% of the body weight for raw? if i had a scale id measure the kibble serving size they recommend and see the comparison...
A wild dog or raw fed dog would get most of it's water from the meat source, as drinking water isnt always easy to find, but Ive read studies that show wolves will gorge themselves on food should the opportunity lend itself to them..


It depends upon the dog's individual needs. 1%-4% is suggested depending upon need. I have a photodump of my pack in the gallery where you can see each dog that I am speaking of.

Doja, age 5.5 years - the primarily white dog - weighs 50lbs. She eats an average of 1lb per day. She is very muscular, and very active. Built like a tank.

Domino, the black & white pup gets 1.5lbs per day, yet currently weighs 32lbs. She is 8.5 months of age and very, very active. She is as lean as can be - not skinny - lean. I think she was a whippet in her past life.

Gracie, the brindle & white, will be 5 on 12/23 and weighs 65lbs and is a couch potato. She averages 1lb per day, but is about to be cut to 12oz because she is lazy and does not want to do anything active except for walksies.

Otis - the red male pup weighs 70lbs. He is 8.5 months of age and receives about 2lbs per day. He is stockier than his sister, Domino, but is slightly less active than her.

The best thing I can tell you is to start with 2% of your dog's IDEAL weight and go up, or down depending upon their physical condition and activity level.

~Tiger

User avatar
Beowulf
Addicted to PBF
Posts: 7035
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 10:04 am
Location: Texas

Postby Beowulf » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:52 pm

starrlamia wrote:my question is how much raw do they eat a day in comparison to dry kibble? Raw is definantly the way to go, but if they eat a less amount of kibble and drink more water wouldnt that add up to the same thing?

My dogs ate a LOT more kibble than raw because they were free fed. When the bowl was empty I just filled it back up.

I don't really feed a set amount of raw. If one dog is looking skinny, I add some more food. If they are looking chunky, I cut it back. I would say my male, who is 55 pounds, eats about 1.25 pounds a day. One female who, weighs 40 pounds but has a really high metabolism and runs around like a maniac, also eats about 1.25 pounds a day. The other female, who also weighs 40 pounds, gets less than a pound a day.

Sorry we got off topic here. I really don't know anything about the protein benefits, etc.

User avatar
Savage Destiny
Bully Ambassador
Posts: 2167
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:04 am
Location: Bend, OR
Contact:

Postby Savage Destiny » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:32 am

Thank you for posting this! :bowdown:

I've always been uncomfortable with the ridiculously high protein levels in some kibbles. Personally I believe its bad for the kidneys to be processing that much protein with no moisture to aid it. I think that if someone insists on feeding a kibble with high protein levels, they should at least soak it in water or add canned food.

User avatar
Maryellen
Addicted to PBF
Posts: 13469
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:09 am
Location: NJ
Contact:

Postby Maryellen » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:45 am

when my dogs ate kibble they drank a ton of water. since switching to raw 2 years ago, they hardly drink the water out of their bowls.

User avatar
starrlamia
Addicted to PBF
Posts: 7375
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:59 pm
Location: Canada

Postby starrlamia » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:21 am

Ok, so 1-4% but still how does that compare to kibble?
For example (pulling numbers outta my butt) if your dog at 5lb of raw food a day but only ate 1lb of kibble a day, would they not get more protein out of the raw compared to the kibble.

I guess my point/question is, yes some kibble are higher in protein then Raw food, but the difference in the amount your dog eats between the two might even out the difference, ie eating a small amount of kibble compared to a huge amount of kibble will obviously change the amount of protein ingested per day.
Im just curious, I dont know either way, I always think Raw is better and will be switching come dec/jan but I just wonder... Looking at the ingredients is easy to say "zomg too much protein" but the amount of each they eat also impacts how much they are actually ingesting.
And Im wondering from a controlled feeding standpoint not a free-feed type deal.

User avatar
Misskiwi67
Addicted to PBF
Posts: 10498
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:37 pm
Location: Iowa City, IA

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:53 am

Calories are calories, and a raw diet meets the dogs caloric needs through protein and fat only, unless the owner opts to include grains into the meal. Depending on the type and source of meat your meat:fat ratio will vary widely. The exact nutritional analysis would have to be figured out by someone far smarter than I...

User avatar
starrlamia
Addicted to PBF
Posts: 7375
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:59 pm
Location: Canada

Postby starrlamia » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:57 am

kk so i read through again, and read the comparison.

Let me explain.. this is mostly for my own interest.

1 lb of Raw Flesh:
Water: 70% (11.2 oz)
Protein: 24% (3.8 oz)

and

1 lb of Innova Evo:
Water: 7% (1.2 oz)
Protein: 44% (6.9 oz) (website says 42% which is 6.7%)

1 lb of Evo is roughly 3.75 cups of food a day. ((121 g = 1 cup) taken from the website for innova)
I will do this comparison on my own pup.. so not entirely accurate for a full grown dog. But its what I have.

I will do 2 comparisons. 1 for grendel eating 1% and one for 4% just to go with extremes.

Grendel is 12 lbs so 1% of his weight is .12 lbs and 4% is .48 lets rond up to .5 for simplicity.

For kibble Evo they recommend 1.5 cups a day and btw Evo is 42% protein not 44% as says their website...

1lb=454g

Raw
at 1% or .12lbs of food for day
.12lbs = 54.5g of food a day
So 106g of a 1lb steak is protein (24%)
24% of .12lbs or 54.5g is .028lbs or 13.08g
Which means your pup would eat 13.08g of protein a day

Raw 4% or .5lbs a day
227g a day 24% of is protein = 54.48


Kibble/Evo
Suggested feeding is 1.5 cups
1 cup of evo is 121g so 1.5 cups is 181.5g of food a day
Now 42% of that is protein so 42% of 181.5g is
76.23g

So if my pup ate the suggested serving of Evo a day thats 76.23g of protein he would receive. If he ate raw (starting at 4% )he would get 54.48g of protein.
There is a difference, but you have to take into account how much raw your dog eats compared to how much kibble they would eat.
It would be interesting if someone could say how much kibble their dog ate (and what kind) and compare it to how much Raw they eat now.

User avatar
Maryellen
Addicted to PBF
Posts: 13469
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:09 am
Location: NJ
Contact:

Postby Maryellen » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:00 am

hm when my dogs ate kibble they ate either 2 cups of canidae per day or two cups of timberwolf per day .

on raw, 1 dog eats 2 lbs per day, 1 dog eats 1 1/2 lbs per day, and the piglet eats right now 4 lbs per day

User avatar
starrlamia
Addicted to PBF
Posts: 7375
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:59 pm
Location: Canada

Postby starrlamia » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:02 am

thanks mary ellen, im gonna see if my brain can handle more math and draw some comparisons.


Return to “Health Issues”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests