Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.
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The Teflon Don
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Postby The Teflon Don » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:33 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:If he has a coin purse of any size, I'd say neutered late. Dogs neutered before they gain their full stature don't have any extra skin back there.


But this makes sense, as well...

:huh?: Oh well...no way of knowing for sure, I guess...

Not that it matters in the slightest

Thanks everyone! :thumbsup:

msvette2u

Re: Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Postby msvette2u » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:42 am

retro wrote:i think this:
Misskiwi67 wrote:They certainly wouldn't have done it if they'd been adequately contained.


is really the root of that unfortunate situation described above.


The problem as I see it, on the rescue side of things, the one thing irresponsible owners have in common (other than letting their dogs run loose chronically) is that they do not alter their pets. Hence huge issue with pet overpopulation.

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Re: Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Postby The Teflon Don » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:48 am

retro wrote:dog management is, IMO, a much more important factor in a dogs behavior than an early S/N. i know of plenty of intact dogs of all breeds with 0 behavioral issues, and plenty of 'altered' dogs that are damn near nuts.


This I agree with...

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Postby jewelsdaddy » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:01 pm

x3

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Re: Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:31 pm

retro wrote: those hormones play a role in growth and development, and i want my dogs to mature the way they were meant to, which has nothing to do with wanting a big burly dog....



Those hormones also play a role in behavior (its well documented that intact males are more likely to roam) as well as cancer developement (a bitch spayed before her first heat is 10% less likely to develop mammary cancer than a bitch spayed after the first heat).

Its a cost:benefits analysis, and the original poster was only concerned with development of size.

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Re: Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Postby retro » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:39 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
Those hormones also play a role in behavior (its well documented that intact males are more likely to roam)


they only roam if their owner lets them. you make it sound like an uncontained, neutered male would just lay around all day and be the perfect pet, never leaving the yard no matter the temptation.

Misskiwi67 wrote:as well as cancer developement (a bitch spayed before her first heat is 10% less likely to develop mammary cancer than a bitch spayed after the first heat).


do you know what the odds are now that a dog will get cancer anyway? 10% isn't a very significant number when you're trying to convince me of a health risk/benefit. to me, 90% chance that spaying her early WON'T make a difference in potential mammary tumors later in life outweighs the 10% when combined with the benefits of allowing normal growth/maturation...

Misskiwi67 wrote:Its a cost:benefits analysis, and the original poster was only concerned with development of size.


which early S/N can have an impact on - as the question was answered.

if i recall, you were the one who mentioned some killer, unneutered boxers and blamed their cojones for their activity. i am sick of people treating S/N like it's a cure-all that you can use in lieu of training etc - S/N is not the hallmark of responsibility. just an early 'snip-snip' is not enough to make the perfectly behaved animal, and you're not a better owner just because you altered your dog/cat. on the flip side, you shouldn't become a pariah if you choose not to 'alter' your pet.

sorry, i'll climb down off of my soap box now...

msvette2u

Postby msvette2u » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:01 pm

if i recall, you were the one who mentioned some killer, unneutered boxers and blamed their cojones for their activity. i am sick of people treating S/N like it's a cure-all that you can use in lieu of training etc - S/N is not the hallmark of responsibility.


I wonder why at least 90-95% of all dogs in shelters are INTACT?
Hm.
This comes from a shelter worker - I never SAW the neutered pets because, their owners were more responsible, they licensed their pets and cared enough to contain their pets.
I don't know the correlation or the math or the statistics, but I know what I SAW.
Responsibility comes in all forms, keeping your dog in your property is one form - but an intact pet IS more likely to wander, it is a fact.
They have a reason to.
S/N may not the THE only hallmark but it sure is one, in most case.
How many owners out there shouldn't even have a dog at all, let alone an intact one??
Sure, HERE, on this little microcosm called PBF, owners are responsible but in real life, HOW MANY?
Pop over to craigslist for a good example of what happens when pets are left intact, or go work at a shelter for a day, euth. day, preferably.

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Re: Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Postby Sarah » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:07 pm

retro wrote:do you know what the odds are now that a dog will get cancer anyway? 10% isn't a very significant number when you're trying to convince me of a health risk/benefit. to me, 90% chance that spaying her early WON'T make a difference in potential mammary tumors later in life outweighs the 10% when combined with the benefits of allowing normal growth/maturation...
.


Mammary tumors are extremely common in unspayed bitches. Bitches spayed prior to their first heat have almost no risk of mammary tumors. After the first season, there is a dramatic increase in the risk (I can't remember the numbers, I'm willing enough to go along with MissKiwis figure.)

After the 2nd season, there is another exponential rise in risk of mammary tumors. After the 3rd season, it jumps exponentially again, the research I've seen shows that after the 3rd season, spaying does not much improve the odds of avoiding mammary tumors.

Neither of my bitches were spayed young, since they are show dogs, and both had their 3rd season by 18 months, so if I'd wanted to improve their odds of not getting mammary tumors, I would certainly have had to spay them before they were mature. If I weren't showing a bitch, I would definitely have her spayed at around 6 months.

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Postby KadillacGrrl » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:12 pm

jlphilli wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:Actually... neutering can delay growth plate closure (uncommon, but common enough to be well documented) and make the pup grow larger!


x2


Not larger. TALLER... and lankier.

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Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:34 pm

KadillacGrrl wrote:
jlphilli wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:Actually... neutering can delay growth plate closure (uncommon, but common enough to be well documented) and make the pup grow larger!


x2


Not larger. TALLER... and lankier.


Taller and Lankier to be sure... but when I stand next to my 6'5" beanpole boyfriend, I still call him "large"

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Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:39 pm

Here are some facts and figures about spay and mammary cancer:

From DVM News: http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Me ... ail/520483

Mammary tumors are the most common neoplasm in intact female dogs and account for approximately half of all neoplasms in them. Mammary neoplasms are uncommon in male dogs, accounting for less than 1 percent of these types of tumors. The incidence of mammary tumors is higher in dogs than in any other domesticated animal and is three times the incidence in humans.

Approximately half of the tumors are malignant, and half have metastasized by the time they are initially diagnosed.

Sex hormones certainly play a role in development of mammary tumors in the bitch. Intact females have a seven-fold increased risk of developing mammary cancer compared to neutered females. The age when ovario-hysterectomy takes place is directly proportional to the risk of developing mammary cancer. Data clearly indicate the preventive role of ovariectomy prior to the second estrus.

When only the dogs that had two or more estrus cycles before spaying are considered, there is still a benefit to earlier spaying. If they were spayed before 2.5 years of age, then the risk was 6 percent of those dogs not spayed at all; (that approximates to the 8 percent quoted for one estrus cycle). If they were older than 2.5 years, the risk was 40 percent of unspayed dogs, but that difference was not significant. Essentially the greatest reduction in risk comes if you spay before the first estrus, but then, as long as you spay before 2.5 years, the risk is very low.

Two studies showed that after a malignant mammary tumor develops, there is no effect of ovariectomy on tumor progression. In contrast, a recent study showed increases in survival time for dogs that were ovariectomized within two years before mammary-tumor surgery.


This is from peteducation.com, but these are the figures that I was taught in veterinary school. Basically, the risk increases exponentially with every heat cycle.

Spaying greatly reduces the chances of a female dog developing this condition. In those females spayed prior to their first heat cycle, breast cancer is very, very rare. The risk of malignant mammary tumors in dogs spayed prior to their first heat is 0.05%. It is 8% for dog spayed after one heat, and 26% in dogs spayed after their second heat.It is believed that the elimination or reduction of certain hormonal factors causes the lowering of incidence of the disease in dogs that have been spayed. These factors would probably be estrogen, progesterone, a similar hormone or possibly a combination of two or more of these.

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Re: Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:44 pm

retro wrote:

sorry, i'll climb down off of my soap box now...


Sorry, I'll also try to forget the sight of an elderly woman covered in blood carrying a gasping dog with over 30 puncture wounds and placing it into my arms... and I'll also forget that I couldn't fix what those dogs had done. I found out the animals were intact male puppies a week later (Saturday actually)... and its still fresh in my mind.

I'll get off my soap box as well... Friends???

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Postby Kingsgurl » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:48 pm

do you know what the odds are now that a dog will get cancer anyway? 10% isn't a very significant number when you're trying to convince me of a health risk/benefit. to me, 90% chance that spaying her early WON'T make a difference in potential mammary tumors later in life outweighs the 10% when combined with the benefits of allowing normal growth/maturation...


Having just watched one of our Day Care dogs die a slow and lingering death from Mammary cancer, I would never wait to spay a bitch I wasn't planning on breeding or showing. Nasty, painful.

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Postby Maryellen » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:26 pm

i had rufus neutered at 5 months old, and he has a tiny coin sack..

msvette2u

Postby msvette2u » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:31 pm

Kingsgurl wrote:
do you know what the odds are now that a dog will get cancer anyway? 10% isn't a very significant number when you're trying to convince me of a health risk/benefit. to me, 90% chance that spaying her early WON'T make a difference in potential mammary tumors later in life outweighs the 10% when combined with the benefits of allowing normal growth/maturation...


Having just watched one of our Day Care dogs die a slow and lingering death from Mammary cancer, I would never wait to spay a bitch I wasn't planning on breeding or showing. Nasty, painful.


My girls whom we've had since pups or at least before their first heat, have been spayed before they had the heat.
Spay incontinence can happen to any female, regardless of the age they were spayed.
My only girl (I had as a teen) who had 2 litters before she was spayed, and still had spay incontinence, so obviously she'd had heats.
IMO that's no good excuse to risk other issues with your females, unless as stated they are show prospects.
In fact, it is also my opinion that the slight changes in looks that may (or may not) occur due to altering, are not enough to matter in PET quality (non-showing) dogs.


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