Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

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kaliya5
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Postby kaliya5 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:55 pm

It is important to remember though, that every animal, despite breed tendencies, is an individual. A lanky dog does not always mean he was neutered young. My APBT I adopted was neutered just before he came to me at age 3 years and is very lanky despite having had ENORMOUS boy parts his whole life (until recently that is!). He has one helluva coin purse now. roflmao

And I agree owner responsibility is key in behavior management BUT a responsible owner is more likely to S/N. My other male dog ( a terrier mix) was neutered as a puppy. He is not lanky but of course has no coin purse and a tiny pee pee. However, he is the one with the behavioral issues while my recently neutered APBT is an angel. Every dog is an individual.

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Re: Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Postby retro » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:44 pm

msvette2u wrote: I never SAW the neutered pets because, their owners were more responsible, they licensed their pets and cared enough to contain their pets.


well, having volunteered at two animal shelters, one a kill shelter, and one a no-kill shelter, i am far from an expert; but i SAW spayed/neutered animals surrendered at my shelters. infact, i adopted one - a pit/shepherd mix named bear who was surrendered for (gasp) dog aggression. i wonder how that was possible since he was neutered as a young dog...

Misskiwi67 wrote:
Sorry, I'll also try to forget the sight of an elderly woman covered in blood carrying a gasping dog with over 30 puncture wounds and placing it into my arms... and I'll also forget that I couldn't fix what those dogs had done. I found out the animals were intact male puppies a week later (Saturday actually)... and its still fresh in my mind.

I'll get off my soap box as well... Friends???


of course! i know there are terrible run ins between dogs and people every day and i don't ever mean to make light of that. i also believe that altering dogs that don't need to be bred is ok. what scares me though is the nationwide rash of MSN proposals, fueled by those who couch S/N as a panacea for the country's animal woes, including abandonment and aggression, when i don't think that's even near the case.

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Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:09 am

Its probably not the answer, but its a pretty darn good start. Banning pit bulls in Ontario hasn't stopped the breeding, and I doubt having a mandatory spay/neuter law in the US will work either. It will, however, give Animal Control one more way to punish irresponsible owners like the ones who allowed those dogs to get loose. It wasn't their first rampage either...

Oh, and its a good thing the Animal Control officer found the dogs before the owners spoke to the media. The owner (and all 3 witnesses) swore it was two pit bulls, and the incident made the local newspaper twice. I was so grateful it wasn't actually two pitties (although it easily could have been) that I am grateful to have another reason to blame... the owner and the fact that two intact dogs were allowed to run loose.

Testosterone may not be the reason those dogs attacked, but it certainly wasn't helping!

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Re: Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Postby dawnapbt » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:57 am

retro wrote:well, having volunteered at two animal shelters, one a kill shelter, and one a no-kill shelter, i am far from an expert; but i SAW spayed/neutered animals surrendered at my shelters. infact, i adopted one - a pit/shepherd mix named bear who was surrendered for (gasp) dog aggression. i wonder how that was possible since he was neutered as a young dog...


Neutering or spaying doesn't turn an aggressive dog into a docile dog. Early neutering CAN help REDUCE the level of same-gender dog aggression between males (not as much between females it seems), BUT it does not change the basic nature of the dog.

msvette2u

Re: Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Postby msvette2u » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:18 am

dawnapbt wrote:
retro wrote:well, having volunteered at two animal shelters, one a kill shelter, and one a no-kill shelter, i am far from an expert; but i SAW spayed/neutered animals surrendered at my shelters. infact, i adopted one - a pit/shepherd mix named bear who was surrendered for (gasp) dog aggression. i wonder how that was possible since he was neutered as a young dog...


Neutering or spaying doesn't turn an aggressive dog into a docile dog. Early neutering CAN help REDUCE the level of same-gender dog aggression between males (not as much between females it seems), BUT it does not change the basic nature of the dog.

I'm not one who's ever thought it will change but it can help stem some of the dog-dog aggression.
You can't tell me that two intact males will not fight if there's a female in season nearby ;)

Also breed has a huge role in DA as does individual traits.

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Postby MikeZev » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:31 am

how about old-man-in-tact-dog butthole? they def look different.


I was a very strong supporter of the s/n every dog everywhere camp but I've heard a lot of facts about the possible other effects. We've been dealing with what my vet thinks may be post spay incontinence after having the surgery @ 1 yr old.

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Postby Maryellen » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:38 am

my gsd was spayed at 6 months old, she has now become incontinent after 7 years... i think that spaying early cant really say if the dog will be incontinent or not, as i have had pediatric spays done on rescue pups and none of them are spay incontinence as of yet, and they are all over the age of 3 already... it could be a 50-50 chance it happens..

msvette2u

Postby msvette2u » Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:44 am

Maryellen wrote:my gsd was spayed at 6 months old, she has now become incontinent after 7 years... i think that spaying early cant really say if the dog will be incontinent or not, as i have had pediatric spays done on rescue pups and none of them are spay incontinence as of yet, and they are all over the age of 3 already... it could be a 50-50 chance it happens..


I agree---my 6yr. old Libby has no such issues and was spayed at 4-5mos., while Pepper (again, spayed at 5 and after 2 litters) developed it much later in lift.

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Re: Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Postby chako » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:28 pm

You can't tell me that two intact males will not fight if there's a female in season nearby ;)


I didn't :)

dawnapbt wrote:Early neutering CAN help REDUCE the level of same-gender dog aggression between males


I agree with you.

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Postby Deniselynn » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:39 pm

The Teflon Don wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:Does he have a coin purse? Is he abnormally gangly for a purebred papered dog?


Yes...he has a small coin purse...

Not at all gangly, though...

He is tall, but quite solid.

And he has a very little pee-pee lol

roflmao

Sorry if that is TMI :oops:


lol Thomas, that sounds like my Logan. Genetics has a lot to do with it too. My husband to this day blames me for getting Logan neutered too young. He said he didn't get a chance to reach his full potential. He is perfectly proportionate and is solid like a brick house.

As for having a small pee pee, at least Logan's isn't constantly sticking out like Jake's. :yucky:

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Re: Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Postby Michael » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:58 pm

retro wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:
Those hormones also play a role in behavior (its well documented that intact males are more likely to roam)


they only roam if their owner lets them. you make it sound like an uncontained, neutered male would just lay around all day and be the perfect pet, never leaving the yard no matter the temptation.

Misskiwi67 wrote:as well as cancer developement (a bitch spayed before her first heat is 10% less likely to develop mammary cancer than a bitch spayed after the first heat).


do you know what the odds are now that a dog will get cancer anyway? 10% isn't a very significant number when you're trying to convince me of a health risk/benefit. to me, 90% chance that spaying her early WON'T make a difference in potential mammary tumors later in life outweighs the 10% when combined with the benefits of allowing normal growth/maturation...

Misskiwi67 wrote:Its a cost:benefits analysis, and the original poster was only concerned with development of size.


which early S/N can have an impact on - as the question was answered.

if i recall, you were the one who mentioned some killer, unneutered boxers and blamed their cojones for their activity. i am sick of people treating S/N like it's a cure-all that you can use in lieu of training etc - S/N is not the hallmark of responsibility. just an early 'snip-snip' is not enough to make the perfectly behaved animal, and you're not a better owner just because you altered your dog/cat. on the flip side, you shouldn't become a pariah if you choose not to 'alter' your pet.

sorry, i'll climb down off of my soap box now...


:goodpost: :goodpost: :woowoo:

I Like this guy!!!!!!!!!

I totally agree.
I am in my 40's and have raised APBT's most of my life.
I do not S/N.
I have had ZERO accidents.
I have dogs worthy of breeding in my humble opinion, and may at some point wish to do so. I have that right.

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Re: Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Postby 1lila1 » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:41 pm

Michael wrote:
I am in my 40's and have raised APBT's most of my life.
I do not S/N.
I have had ZERO accidents.
I have dogs worthy of breeding in my humble opinion, and may at some point wish to do so. I have that right.


I'm curious as to why you wouldn't spay or neuter dogs that have reached maturity yet you are not planning on breeding them? What's the point? I don't doubt that you're a mature responsible person I just don't see why you would risk keeping an intact animal that you are not breeding. I just wonder about the frustration a male would feel who is not allowed to be bred. If they can smell a female in heat a mile away yet are unable to breed, and still posess the desire to, IMO, that would cause a lot of unnecessary stress and frustration for a male dog.

Did you ever experience pyometera with any of your intact females? During the few years I worked at vet clinics when I was younger we saw so many pyometras in females who weren't bred but never fixed. Maybe you don't have females and have only had males or vice versa. I'm not trying to be argumentative, and of course, I think it should be your right not to S/N, but I'm wondering what your reasonings are and why you would exercise this right.

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Re: Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Postby BrokenAquarian » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:46 pm

1lila1 wrote:
Michael wrote:
I am in my 40's and have raised APBT's most of my life.
I do not S/N.
I have had ZERO accidents.
I have dogs worthy of breeding in my humble opinion, and may at some point wish to do so. I have that right.


I'm curious as to why you wouldn't spay or neuter dogs that have reached maturity yet you are not planning on breeding them?


I'm not speaking for Michael, but this is what I got from his post.

He hasn't bred his dogs yet, that doesn't mean he will never breed them.

Just because you have a dog that's worthy of breeding, doesn't mean that you have to breed them the first chance you get. You wait for the right dog to come along, the right time in YOUR schedule and plenty of other factors before breeding your animals.

He's keeping his options open.

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Postby Oneluckygirl » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:16 pm

I got that as well, from his posting. I have not altered River at all yet, most would say how can you not, but I also have the right, I understand the risks and also have researched risks of doing it to my dog, It doesn't mean I have not considered it but by chance I have no acted on it. River has grown beyond my understanding at nine months he's reached a 87 pound range and each day that passes he seems to gain 5 more pounds & he does not look fat at all, So I do agree with neutering and disagree at the same time with doing and not doing, its a choice and a right as a owner, who is considering the risks at every angle. I expected from the run ins about me not neutering river him to be crazy, he is a handful but he needs a firm hand and he has responded so well to training and is alert more because of his man hood, I don't know if that is possible but he is just all about learning and is proceeding his obedience and working training so its different for everyone and their experiences with making that choice. I would hope someone irresponsible would take that in mind to neuter to prevent them making a harsh financial decision if the dog does end up medically challenged, But I think its their choice. I make sure River is always leashed in public and always inside if he is on a free roam and the back yard is complete brick and has huge french guard gates that would have to be opened by an adult in order for him to get out, but with the town I live in I am on alert and watchful when he is outside on a free roam to make sure hes not stolen or has found a way to jump a high wall.lol. I as an owner don't plan to breed him because he has come down with demodex and its not healthy breeding now that I know that, but as well as knowing from the vet that All dogs raised normally by their mothers possess this mite as mites are transferred from mother to pup via cuddling during the first few days of life. So in his response to future breedings he doesn't believe it is a issue in breeding since All dogs do have demodex but their immune systems are able to sustain a harmony with the dog and the mite which is why some dogs don't appear to have the mite and the dogs who so happen to have a bit of a weak immune system end up showing symptoms, I still don't feel like I need to breed him. He is what I wanted and I am content enough to be grateful for his character,nature and giving him a life he deserves, which is get him every thing he sets his eyes on.lol. I think I have realized being responsible with your dog is key success to a healthy life.

msvette2u

Postby msvette2u » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:26 pm

Along with RIGHTS come RESPONSIBILITIES.
I don't think most of America is responsible enough to keep intact pets.
I KNOW some of the people on this forum aren't responsible enough. It's been proven.
Sure, it might be your "right", but do you really think it's "right" and good to add to the pet overpopulation problem??

Unless you are SHOWING your dog, health testing it extensively (more than a yearly vet visit) and it's won awards and conformation competitions, how do you even KNOW you have a breed worthy dog?
You don't. Period.


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