Skin trouble. Input needed.

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Pineapples
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Skin trouble. Input needed.

Postby Pineapples » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:09 am

Allergies, staph infection, demodex or something completely different?

He is loosing fur like crazy, falls right off him if I just touch him. He started shedding a bit like a week ago, I figured it was just normal shedding for the winter. But it has intensified yesterday and today, and now he is literarily going bald.
He is itchy, scratches himself approx every half hour to an hour, but seems fine apart from that. His skin is kind of red, has tiny bumps in it, and as you can see it doesn't look that great. I don't know if this is from the scratching though. His back leg will go nutso if I scratch him on the side.

The dog is six and a half years old. He is allergic at times, but he has never been like this. His allergies have been managable and we've only had to take him to the vet like twice. Demodex is not common in dogs this old, right? (*gulp*)
He was bathed friday, could this be "just" an allergic reaction to the shampoo? He has been a bit itchy after his bath, and we haven't used that shampoo before.
I've also been spraying him with Dermapet MalAcetic conditioner every day. It's for "skin dogs" so I gather it's pretty safe.

I don't have any good vets around here, and I don't have the money to get to a good one for about a week. It's a long drive and they are quite expensive.
How urgent is this? Can it wait or should I find a way somehow to get him to a good vet immedietly?

I guess I'm sorta in denial and pretending it'll just pass? I feel so bad, but I'm just pertrified of sick dogs after loosing so many in such a short time. If I should have gone to the vet a week ago tell me so, but please don't be harsh about it. I'm so thinskinned with this right now. Thanks. :)

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msvette2u

Postby msvette2u » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:29 am

What kind of shampoo? Anything else changed?
When did you start the mal-acetic spray?

How's he for fleas? Recent treatment for fleas?

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Postby Pineapples » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:50 am

msvette2u wrote:What kind of shampoo?

The shampoo was a mix of human shampoo and Vetriderm Hypo-allergen Shampoo. I ran out of the Vetriderm half through the bath and had to make do with what I had. :oops: I see how this can be the culprit.

Anything else changed?

We went on a trip about a month ago to my parents. My mom had made a bed for him and it made him itchy that week end. I suspect the detergent or fabric softener. He was a bit stressed that weekend. No other changes that I can think of.

When did you start the mal-acetic spray?

About a week ago I think. You think this is what's causing him the upset? I got it recommended from my last vet to help with allergies on Bacon, another dog I had.

How's he for fleas? Recent treatment for fleas?

Good point. No recent treatment for fleas, lice, ticks or anything. But he hasn't been around many dogs either. The few he has interacted with I know well and no fleas on them. Fleas are not common in Norway though. Lice are more common, and I haven't seen any on him.

msvette2u

Postby msvette2u » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:53 am

I'd use whatever shampoo worked in the past, get all the stuff off him and start anew - skip the Mal Acetic spray.
See if you can get as much of whatever's been on him, off of him and see if it goes away.
Malacetic is, if I remember right, VERY drying - it's basically vinegar, good for yeast, as it dries things out.

So bathe with the shampoo what's worked well in the past, don't spray and see if things improve?

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Postby pblove » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:07 am

looks like what we get here on the farms- fox mange(fox mites)
has he been out rolling around in grass where fox live/are?

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Postby Pineapples » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:09 am

Thank you! I'll definitely try that. He'll be off to the showers tonight. Do you think I should wash him a couple of times a week for a period of time or just see how he does after another bath?

msvette2u wrote:Malacetic is, if I remember right, VERY drying - it's basically vinegar, good for yeast, as it dries things out.

According to the bottle:
"... It combines natural moisturizing factors, alpha hydroxy acids and skin nutrients (essential fatty acids) to bind moisture to skin..."

I think the vinegar part is just to maintain an acidic pH in the skin. Most shampoos and conditioners are alkaline but the natural pH in dogs skin is acidic. Something like that is what I was told anyway. Works well for yeast since yeast thrives in alkaline environments?
But yeah, I'll definitely stop spraying him.

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Postby BaltimoreBully » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:43 am

Jezzy looked like that on her belly and legs about 2 months ago. She would wake me up in the middle of the night from scratching. When I took her to the vet he said sarcoptic mange which I could have brought home from the shelter or she could have gotten from anyone of the wild animals that wandered through the yard. Thankfully no one else in the house got it and after a dose of Revolution, a good bath and 10 days of antibiotics she was fine.
She needed antibiotics b/c she had scratched so much the skin under her elbows was infected.
Probably a good idea to get a skin scrape done just to be safe. Although many times Jezzy has had an allergic reaction to stuff that looked like that.

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Postby Pineapples » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:51 am

pblove wrote:looks like what we get here on the farms- fox mange(fox mites)
has he been out rolling around in grass where fox live/are?

BFs parents have a farm and Charlie gets to run off leash on the fields there. I have seen some excrements there that I wondered what animal it came from. It could definitely be fox. I'll ask BFs dad if he's seen any foxes. He hasn't been rolling in anything though, just ran on the field. And it has been below freezing here some nights, but I don't know if that would kill the mites that a fox may have left. He doesn't itch that much either. I don't know.

What is the treatment for fox mange? Ivomec? Oral or subcutaneous? I really want to stay clear of Mitaban if it turns out to be sarcoptic mange.

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Postby BaltimoreBully » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:55 am

I don't like Mitaban either. Ivermectin works well for all types of mange. I'm used to giving it orally but I know many vets will give it subq for anything other then demodex.

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Postby Pineapples » Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:04 pm

I just realized that Ivomec/Ivermectin is nor registered for dogs in Norway. Only horses and sheep.

I'll try giving him another wash and see how itchy he is tomorrow. If it is mange I think he will be itching. I've been in the room with him for hours now and I haven't seen him scratch himself once.
If I scratch him though, his back leg will start flopping. So itchy but not crazy itchy would be a good description. :P :)

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Postby Pineapples » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:13 pm

He's freshly bathed now and super miserable about it. So much hair came off him in the shower, and it's still falling off. Bah, I don't like this.:(
He's starting to look like a plucked chicken poor thing.

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Postby Leslie H » Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:02 pm

I did make a dog lose a ton of coat w/a harsh shampoo. I was showing an AB who tended to be a filthy pig. I washed her before each show w/a shampoo for white coats. By the 3-4th show, I stopped showing her, because she looked awful. Then my friend pointed out it could be the shampoo. It was.
I'm really sorry you're going through this, you've dealt w/enough.

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Postby pblove » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:47 pm

Pineapples wrote:
pblove wrote:looks like what we get here on the farms- fox mange(fox mites)
has he been out rolling around in grass where fox live/are?

BFs parents have a farm and Charlie gets to run off leash on the fields there. I have seen some excrements there that I wondered what animal it came from. It could definitely be fox. I'll ask BFs dad if he's seen any foxes. He hasn't been rolling in anything though, just ran on the field. And it has been below freezing here some nights, but I don't know if that would kill the mites that a fox may have left. He doesn't itch that much either. I don't know.

What is the treatment for fox mange? Ivomec? Oral or subcutaneous? I really want to stay clear of Mitaban if it turns out to be sarcoptic mange.

I have a friend that just had to treat two of her farm dogs for fox mange/mites, she used one dose of Revolution per dog.. I am not sure about the Ivomec (but problaby so)
Fox poop resembles dark colored dog poop(but small amounts like a cat poop) with some berry looking things mixed in it. I know, too muhc info but better to know what it looks like so hopefully you can steer Charlie from it as dogs love to roll in fox manure.
When some of my dogs had fox mange/mites they did not itch/scratch much, mostly lost patches of fur .It was a good 10 years ago and back then vet gave me a gallon jug of a a sulphar wash (stunk like rotten eggs).Thankfully, better options are now available.
Sorry your going thru this after having so many other losses.

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Postby SonnysMomma » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:35 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but washing him constantly could make matters worse...by drying his skin out? Isnt this a possibilty?

I thought that the more you wash them, it strips there natural oils...

I hope he gets better...I am sure he will! Good luck..I wish I had some advice, but I dont.

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Postby Pineapples » Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:16 am

Thank you Leslie and pblove. I appreciate it. Yes, I think I'm definitely scarred from previous experiences.
I'm crossing my fingers I made the same mistake as you, Leslie. Did the AB loose a lot of fur?

He is less itchy today, and his fur isn't falling off as much as yesterday. I'm doing a slight and very careful yay. I took some new pics of him on our morning walk and I'll post them for you to see. I think his skin looks less irritated also, you be the judge. He seems a bit perkier too (I use this term very lightly with Charlie ;) ).
Oh, I forgot to say. He smells a bit even if he had a bath yesterday. I don't know how to describe the smell, but a hint of poop might cover it.
I don't know whether to go to the vet yet as I have lost all trust in my own common sense in health issues. I have no clue if I'm being hysterical or in denial anymore.

I'm having doubts that it's fox mange. He doesn't roll in it, and I have trouble seeing how the mites can survive for a long time without a host, and temperatures have been below zero at nights. Does anybody know if fox mites can live through all that? The poop does sound like what you are describing, although I haven't seen any berry things in it.
I'm keeping all options open though.

SonnysMomma:
Washing often can be a smart thing to do with allergic dogs as they are usually allergic things they come in contact with (dustmites, grass, pollen etc) so washing off the allergens and giving the skin room to relax a bit.
Especialy if you start to see symptoms of a secondary skin infection (not unusual in allergydogs) it is important to keep the skin clean and as free of bacteria as possible.
Like many things it's about weighing the good against the bad.

Thank you guys!


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