Raw Causing Loose Stools?

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concreterose
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Postby concreterose » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:15 pm

Save it! I make treats with organs. Adding grain to them (if your dog can tolerate grain) is a good way for them to get them without having runs.
Here's a favorite for my two...my dog reactive boy flips over them and won't even look at another dog if I have them!

Liver treats:
One pound of beef or chicken liver (or other liver if you have access).
One cup flour (I use whole wheat flour)
One cup cornmeal
1/4 tsp. garlic powder (not garlic salt)
One egg

Put the liver and egg in food processor or blender and mix it. Add the flour, cornmeal, and garlic powder, mix.
Spread into a baking dish (I use a 9 1/2 by 11 inch so that they are kinda flat, but you can use a cookie sheet to make them even flatter), and back for about an hour and a half on two hundred.
Let cool, and cut into small squares. I usually divide them up and put them in freezer bags and pop them in the freezer till I get ready to use them...that way they last a long time.

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Allie
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Postby Allie » Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:19 pm

Great recipe CR! Thanks! Do you think it could be done in a toaster oven? (my real oven is broken :()

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Maryellen
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Postby Maryellen » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:13 pm

it would probably take longer but it should work allie

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concreterose
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Postby concreterose » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:21 pm

Allie wrote:Great recipe CR! Thanks! Do you think it could be done in a toaster oven? (my real oven is broken :()

Yup, just cook it on a higher heat and make your layers thin. :thumbsup:

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Misskiwi67
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Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:29 am

Am I the only one who got shivers from "Black and Tarry" stools...

I'd have this dog on kibble so fast...

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Postby concreterose » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:37 am

My dogs tend to have dark stool when they've eat a meal heavy in organs (not in a long time though because I've learned the amount they can tolerate).
Clears right up when they don't have it. I see what you're sayin' though :thumbsup:

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Red Brindle
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Postby Red Brindle » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:56 am

Same here as far as raw creating darker stools.

Tarry sounds pretty bad though. Is it really sticky and viscous like tar or just dark like tar? Could you describe your level of expercience with tar lol

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Maryellen
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Postby Maryellen » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:02 am

if i give too much organ meat (like an entire liver) to the dogs each they get that black tarry looking poop... if i give a small piece of liver instead (say a half inch by a half inch) they poop normal. when i feed red meats or beef heart their poop is blackish looking as well. last night they all got beef blood along with angus beef and liver and they all got blackish tarry poop ( i forgot to add slippery elm). normally i add a few chicken wings to their food too when i feed beef but i forgot.. the OP said she was giving organ meats with every feeding, which would explain the poop as she was giving all the organs in the chicken to her dog instead of cutting up the organs and giving in pieces over a course of a week..

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retro
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Postby retro » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:23 am

a rough ratio to follow is 80:10:10 - 80% meat, 10% bone, & 10% organ meat. mine eat 1x per day, anywhere from 1.5-2 pounds at a time, and each meal is built on roughly that formula. i have no problem with loose stools on any of the dogs, they eat chicken, beef, & venison and the only thing that changes is the color of the stool - the darker the meat.... and so on. as you mentioned, the pumpkin should help with the stool consistency, you can also add yogurt for the acidophilus to aid in digestion.

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Postby El_EmDubya » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:40 pm

The tar color is due to an excess of bile pigments, which are heme based molecules. When you feed darker Iron saturated meats, the feces will show this imbalance. It is definitely NOT good, because it signals an imbalance, so try to fix your ratios quickly, but over the short run their livers will survive. (It is related to why your poo is green when you go on a weekend bender roflmao . Bilirubin gives poo a golden/brown color, while Biliverdin gives it the green/black color. When your body chemistry is out of balance, due to alcohol consumption, it shows in your poop.)

Here's a cool video:

http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072495855/student_view0/chapter21/animation__hemoglobin_breakdown.html

LMW

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Misskiwi67
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Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:10 pm

Too much liver will cause hypervitaminosis A, and it doesn't take much or long to do it.

Again... I'd have this dog on kibble so fast... why prolong the imbalance while he figures out the problem?

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Postby pitgrrl » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:26 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:Too much liver will cause hypervitaminosis A, and it doesn't take much or long to do it.

Again... I'd have this dog on kibble so fast... why prolong the imbalance while he figures out the problem?


Or they could just not give organs for a day or two and see if the issue resolves :dunno:

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Postby 1lila1 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:57 pm

If you're feeding the whole chicken then the meat:bone ration should be pretty much perfect! I'm wondering exactly how loose is "loose" when it comes to stools. Kibble, along with all the other artifical crap in there, has artificial stool hardners so a raw fed dogs stool may not be as consistent in firmness or color as a kibble fed dog. Lila's stool is pretty loose when it comes out and it's pretty dark but it always turns white in a day or so which is what it should. I don't freak over changes in Lila's stool as human' poos, who don't eat people kibble, isn't always identical each and everytime so raw fed dog's shouldn't be expected to be either. Maybe you're worrying for nothing?

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Misskiwi67
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Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:19 am

pitgrrl wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:Too much liver will cause hypervitaminosis A, and it doesn't take much or long to do it.

Again... I'd have this dog on kibble so fast... why prolong the imbalance while he figures out the problem?


Or they could just not give organs for a day or two and see if the issue resolves :dunno:


Vitamin A is a fat soluble vitamin, and skipping liver for a day or two is not going to solve the problem. If he's feeding enough liver to cause tarry stools, then he's got some serious imbalance issues that simple tweaking are not going to fix.

I'm all for raw when its done right, but when your meat:bone:organ ratios are grossly imbalanced you're on the road to making a dog really sick in a hurry.

Here's an excerpt from the January 2006 Monica Segal Newsletter that emphasizes this point:

PS. If you're feeding a home cooked diet or using supplements of any kind I suggest you sign up for this newsletter.

Myth of the Month
“No need to worry – just feed a variety of foods”
This story comes with the permission of a client who was happy to share the errors, problems, and success seen after the diet was corrected.
Mandy is an eight year-old, 48 pound mixed breed dog that was placed on a raw diet five years ago. She has an iron clad stomach and was fed according to what’s become a typical diet – a lot of variety. This method was agreed upon when her owner was advised by several people on a variety of discussion groups that science is flawed and Mandy would be doing just fine if fed a diet based on whole prey. At first, this seemed to be the case but over time Mandy’s skin looked a bit flaky despite her coat being lovely. This was followed by some eye goop and scratching. It wasn’t long before she had a couple of peeling nails, some muscle soreness and slower healing time.
Whole prey, caught from the wild, does indeed offer great nutrition. Farmed animals do not have the same nutrient profile. In fact, since they’re fed diets that aim to bring them to market at optimal weight and condition, few if any farmers are actually raising animals and thinking about what nutrient profile they might provide for a dog. Even if we dismiss this fact, the problem in Mandy’s case was the same one I run into almost weekly. Very few people feed a whole animal including the head, feet, glands, etc. Some make up their own animal and it seems to have the neck of a turkey, liver of a cow, kidneys of a pig, and so forth. Here’s what Mandy used to consume over the average month:
4 pounds, turkey neck
2 pounds, chicken backs
2 pounds chicken frames
5 pounds, chicken quarters
2 pounds, pork ribs
1 pound, turkey thigh
2 pounds, turkey wings
2 pounds, chicken wings
12 eggs, with shells
2 pounds, ground beef, medium fat
4 pounds, beef liver
1 large container, whole milk yogurt (16 oz)
28 oz salmon, sockeye, canned
1 pound, goat meat
2 pork kidneys
1 pound, chicken giblets
The main problems of this diet are as follows:
The diet provides 60% of its calories from fat but we do not have a source of vitamin E to work as an antioxidant. There is an excess of vitamin D. More importantly, the diet provides about double the amount calcium that this dog needs and about half the requirement for zinc. Since the excess calcium makes some of the zinc unavailable to the body, this creates a serious problem and is likely to be a major cause of slow healing. The amount of copper in this diet is just shy of six times requirement. Not only can this be toxic but the interaction between copper and zinc plays a role and translates to even worse news for the status of both minerals. Magnesium, important for mineral metabolism, is in very short supply. The amount of phosphorus is almost double requirement while potassium is insufficient and sodium is more than four times requirement.
The diet, now being fed with success for well over a year, eliminated or reduced some of the raw meaty bones, reduced beef liver and salmon to lower copper and sodium, increased the amount of ground beef and introduced canned oysters for their zinc content as well as beef heart to provide more iron.
The difference between a diet that’s fed ‘willy nilly’ and one that has been formulated to meet a dog’s needs can make a large impact. We can continue a raw meat and bone diet without vegetables or grains but nutrient values need to be kept in mind. Mandy’s nails are strong, her skin and eyes are clear. As her owner says “ It’s more than just changing the diet and hoping for the best. These changes were obviously thought out and they made drastic changes in less than one month.”

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pitgrrl
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Postby pitgrrl » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:07 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:
pitgrrl wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:Too much liver will cause hypervitaminosis A, and it doesn't take much or long to do it.

Again... I'd have this dog on kibble so fast... why prolong the imbalance while he figures out the problem?


Or they could just not give organs for a day or two and see if the issue resolves :dunno:


Vitamin A is a fat soluble vitamin, and skipping liver for a day or two is not going to solve the problem. If he's feeding enough liver to cause tarry stools, then he's got some serious imbalance issues that simple tweaking are not going to fix.


To clarify, I meant feeding no organs for a day or two would allow the OP to see if the organs were the issue, at which point they could make permanent adjustments to the dog's diet.


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