Neutered or Natural?

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Misskiwi67
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Re: Neutered or Natural?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:25 pm

Adrianne wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote: if the owner of the cat had neutered them, neither I nor the good samaritans would have been in that position.

Seriously? That is what you gain from that experience?
How about "If the owner had contained their animal"

Geez. It's ok to let your animals loose unsupervised outside if they are altered. Trust in the science. They won't roam to the streets.
:huh?:


Chances are good that both those cats were feral or semi-feral, chasing females in heat during springtime. My only concern was to make sure those clients knew they'd done everything THEY could, and it was NOT their fault... my opinion was and still is that it was not their fault. What would you have told them??

Science DOES show that neutered animals roam less...

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Re: Neutered or Natural?

Postby Adrianne » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:32 pm

I would have most certainly said it was not their fault. It was the fault of the people who foolishly did not contain their animals. Be it the cats owners or the cats ancestors owners.

I would further explain the danger and damage to the environment that cats allowed loose come across and do. I would not pretend this pet or feral cat had it been altered would not end up in the street.

My parents always had altered cats, never a single intact cat and every cat roamed. It was a horrible practice I preached and begged against once my education in environmental sciences began but sadly it took two of them catching feline herpes after being picked up by ACO and then one of the two being torn to shreds by a wild animal before my parents realized the true danger to all outside unsupervised cats (and dogs) intact or altered, in this case, altered.

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Re: Neutered or Natural?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:13 pm

Thinking back I didn't put it exactly like that... it was more along the lines of "Its springtime, he wasn't neutered, and intact males have other things on their minds than looking for cars this time of year. It wasn't your fault, he probably never saw you coming, and he didn't suffer long. Thank you for trying..."

Yes, all outdoor cats have half the lifespan of indoor cats. Yes, neutered and un-neutered cats all wander... but un-neutered males wander more widely and have a higher rate of getting hit by cars than other animals, ESPECIALLY in springtime.

Its what I was taught before vet school as a tech assistant/intern, its what I was taught during vet school, and its what I've seen personally since starting private practice. I didn't hear this a thousand times for it to be un-true or non-applicable. Is it the only reason to neuter pets, absolutely not. Is it the only reason pets get hit by cars... absolutely not. Is it a factor, I certainly think so, and I don't feel the need to convince you anymore. You can believe whatever you want... you can't change what I've seen/heard/experienced the past 10 years.

I'm just throwing in my 2 cents here... I really don't understand why everyone has such a problem with it. I probably wouldn't have even responded to have these posts if it hadn't been my day off today, so I'm sorry if I kept the conversation going off topic for longer than it should have.

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Re: Neutered or Natural?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:14 pm

Ilovethepits wrote:I prefer my male dog to be neutered.

I know people whose intact dog broke through their picture window TWICE to go after a female dog in heat that lived in their neighborhood. Once he was neutered he didn't do it again.


Exactly my point... he didn't stop because he finally learned his lesson... he stopped because he no longer had the testosterone drive to do whatever it took to get to the female in heat. I hope he didn't get hurt too bad going through the glass like that!

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Re: Neutered or Natural?

Postby MikeZev » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:17 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
MikeZev wrote:also, i'm not sure how a vet would know what animals are roaming the streets. are they roaming into your office? maybe you have access to detailed information from the ACOs in your urban area but if not you have no grounds to discount the opinion of someone who does.


The bleeding/dying/dead ones come to me, the smart ones get caught by you before they do something stupid... I hope. The only time I see animals found roaming is because they are seriously hurt and brought in by the person who hit them or the person who found them decides to keep them. I see the hit by car animals... not the roaming ones, and that was and still is my point.

So what is your experience with the animals hit by cars? If you're anything like me, those are the cases that stick with you because they're different than the other 20 plus animals/owners you deal with every day, and you don't get involved in animal welfare if you aren't in it to take care of the animals. Nobody in this business enjoys seeing hurt animals.



my experience with animals hit by cars is not extensive, thats why i chose not to make any comments on that subject. i commented on roaming animals in urban areas and you responded by questioning my experience in a smarmy tone when by your own admission, you have little to no experience in this area.

look everyone here, including me, appreciates and likes to hear free advice from passionate vets - we are lucky to have it on this board. nobody likes to be talked down to and nobody likes to get know it all, one sided opinions and answers from vets with the ink on thier diplomas still wet and zero bedside manner. something to keep in mind.

that sucks that 2 intact male cats got hit by cars. dont base any theories on it though.

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Re: Neutered or Natural?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:53 pm

MikeZev wrote:that sucks that 2 intact male cats got hit by cars. dont base any theories on it though.


And 2 of 3 dogs when I was shadowing early on... our supervisor made a big point of making sure we knew it and took note of it. All the dogs I've seen personally were run over by their owners in their own drive-ways... so roaming wasn't an issue there. Funny to remember dogs don't even have to be roaming to be hit by cars after all this hullaballoo...

Nope... nobody likes to be talked down to... but nobody likes to have their experiences to be assumed to be money-mongering when you're as passionate as I am... and working for pennies on top of it all. I spend a lot of my free time offering up my experiences when everyone else is posting one over-used and widely debated study on osteosarcoma.

My job title is posted for all to see (at the request of the PBF moderators, not mine) and I have to ask what others personal experiences are for comparison. Obviously the experiences of an ACO officer count for more than someone who's only seen a single stray dog in their lifetime... but I cannot know this and weigh your opinion accurately without that information. This is, after all a debate... please take it as such, and not as anything more.

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Re: Neutered or Natural?

Postby Gatorpit » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:14 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:Then why are intact MALES more likely to get hit, instead of intact animals (males and female?)...

Having a 2 out of 2 intact male dead on arrival cats PERSONALLY in the past 18 months since I've been a practicing veterinarian... out of 4 potential possibilities (male/female/spayed/neutered)... I'd say yes, there IS a significant difference in the chances of intact males running into traffic to "get to the other side" than females.

I've yet to find the source of these statistics, but I have found this stated on numerous humane society websites. Don't worry, I'm going to keep looking:

Statistics show that 90% of the millions of cats and 80% of the dogs hit and killed by vehicles on the road are unsterilized.

Staggering... is it not???


I beleive (like someone already said) that there is a strong connection...

Irrisponsilbility.

Somone who has intact animals is more likely (not necesarily) to be a less responsible owner.

Or should I say, if someone is apt to let there pets roam, or just not be quite so careful about preventing escape, they are likely to be the same people who do not spay/nueter their pets.

I would imagine that if more people who were responsible enough to nueter, were allowing there pets to escape or to roam free, you would find more of these animals dead on roads.

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Re: Neutered or Natural?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:54 am

Gatorpit wrote:I would imagine that if more people who were responsible enough to nueter, were allowing there pets to escape or to roam free, you would find more of these animals dead on roads.


I agree... but lets also take into account that testosterone is a distraction... no matter what species you are.

Why do we hunt deer in November? Because thats the rut, the time of year when deer are moving and breeding, and thats the time of year you're more likely to be able to sneak up on that old knarly buck. There are other reasons to hunt deer in the fall, but out of an entire month (or 3 if you're a bow hunter) of deer hunting, the rut is the one week you're most likely to bag your buck.

Why do teenage boys have double the insurance rates of their female counterparts, even with no driving record to prove their irresponsibility?? Because statistically teenage boys are more likely to do something that requires an insurance claim. What is it about being a young male that makes them more likely to damage a car, more likely to be severely injured in a car accident??? Probably testosterone...

To me... its a no-brainer. I still don't understand why this is so hotly debated.

If people are concerned that I'm saying its not important to keep your dogs contained, that is NOT what I'm saying at all. If a male dog is intact and kept responsibly, this will be a non-issue, but the fact of the matter is people don't do that, and therefore an intact males predisposition to roam should be a minor consideration. If everyone kept their dogs responsibly, half the topics debated on this forum wouldn't be an issue...

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Re: Neutered or Natural?

Postby Red Chrome » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:43 am

MissKiwi67 wrote:If people are concerned that I'm saying its not important to keep your dogs contained, that is NOT what I'm saying at all. If a male dog is intact and kept responsibly, this will be a non-issue, but the fact of the matter is people don't do that, and therefore an intact males predisposition to roam should be a minor consideration. If everyone kept their dogs responsibly, half the topics debated on this forum wouldn't be an issue...


I get the feeling that a lot of people think that Speutering is the be all end all of ALL behaviors. Ooppp, your dog lifts his leg on something neuter him, that'll fix it. Humps something, neuter them, that'll fix it. I think once people realize that there ARE people that own intact pets that do NOT let them run free and reproduce willy nilly, things could be debated better. Also, I own an intact make who has NEVER lifted his leg in the house, EVER. Simple reason why not? He's housebroke!!!! He also does NOT hump things, there is no reason for him too. He tried as a puppy and I curbed that behavior quickly. I let him out of his kennel if I'm outside and guess what.....he doesn't leave the yard, EVEN when there are very enticing things walking by(other dogs, horses etc.), the reason....SIMPLE- He's TRAINED. I would never leave him outside alone because he is a DOG not because he's intact but because he is a dog and could chase something, see something more interesting etc.

I'm sick of seeing lack of speutering being blamed for a roaming animal. My little SPAYED dog is MORE likely to roam than my intact male. My neutered male is more likely to roam than my intact male. My neutered male, will lift his leg in the house and is a general ass. He wasn't like that until AFTER he was neutered. He was way more laid back before neutering, non-aggressive and now, he's a jerk. Figure that one out with your statistics.

Any one of us can manipulate statistics to be in our favor and find studies etc. to suppport that. I think that you have an attitude in general about intact animals(from your posts), I understand that since you see a lot of them. Honestly, there are way more irresponsible owners than responsible ones but if the person is providing vet care for their pet then they are not that irresponsible, there are a ton of dogs that don't even get that luxury.

All I'm saying is that if more people looked at other factors instead of blaming something on a body part, dogs would be better behaved. Not every roaming dog can be blamed because it was intact.....not every roaming dog is intact. I can prove that with experiences and statistics(cause they're a dime a dozen).

Courtney

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Re: Neutered or Natural?

Postby Pineapples » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:15 pm

But why oh why don't we really have male roaming dogs here in Norway? We don't even have leash laws except between april and august here, so intact male dogs are let off leash all the time here on walks, in the forest, in the park, let to play with other dogs. Off leash male dogs are normal and common here, and it is not really a huge problem as they are generally under control.

Why aren't dogs dying of prostate infections, pyometra or everything else on a big scale here? Yes, both prostate infectons and pyometra do occure, but it is usually treated easily either by medication or by castrating. (This is why we had to neuter Charlie btw, but that does not mean it is ok to castrate at an early age because he MIGHT have issues in the future. To me that is an ethical question.)
Prostate issues or pyometra are not generally fatal, at least they aren't here in Norway. Deaths are few and far between. These dogs are treated without much drama at all, much like other medical issues a dog might encounter during his life.

Intact males don't really inflict fatal dogbites here either, and stating that percentage the way you did is in my opinion using statistics very poorly. To imply that is was the testicles that made those dogs bite? Seriously dude, that is just reaching. As you (probably) know, there are many factors that have a role in a fatal dog attack, reproductive status is only one of them. (and my personal stance is that Gatorpit is right when it comes to the owner responsibility of castrated vs. intact dogs in America) A fatal dog attack is the result of a multitude of factors topped off with bad timing. It is a quite complex state of affairs, it is also a very rare occurance and it is therefor very difficult to conclude anything definite about fatal dog bites in general.

The vast majority of male dogs here are intact, and they don't roam, bite, hump, mark, fight. They are not dying because of their reproductive organs, nor are they depressed/desperate/sex-crazed either. They are happy go lucky guys living their lives with testicles and are none the wiser.
How is it that the reality of intact dogs both on an individual and massive scale is not the one that is painted in this thread?

I would love to see studies like Hart & Eckstein being done here in Norway and then compare the numbers. Or even do basic training and give behavioral advice instead of recommending speutering as the first (and sometimes only) advice for simple behavioral "problems". We might see the same improvement.

Misskiwi67 wrote:To me... its a no-brainer. I still don't understand why this is so hotly debated.

Geeze… Because people disagree with you? Because people don't read the statistics tha same way you do (you are leaving out key information when you keep stating the percentages regarding castration and behavior… You are using the Hart & Eckstein study right?)? Because doing surgery on an animal should not be done lightly? Because some feel that tampering with a healthy and happy dog purely for preventative reasons is wrong? Because they know that neutering can have a negative impact on behavior just as easily as it can have a positive impact? Because many people think that testosterone is a natural hormone present in dogs, and that it does not normally have an impact on their wellbeing or quality of life, having based that opinion on having seen a multitude of male intact dogs?
Or simply because people can be educated, informed, intelligent, insightful on the matter and still come to a different conclusion than you?
I'm sorry to say so, but you strike me a bit arrogant in this subject.

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Re: Neutered or Natural?

Postby The Teflon Don » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:35 pm

I have nothing terribly insightful to add to this thread, although it has been an interesting one to read through.

Pineapples wrote:The vast majority of male dogs here are intact, and they don't roam, bite, hump, mark, fight.


BUT...

I can say that my intact male is exactly as described above...ideal dog, IMHO...and exceptional off-leash...

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Re: Neutered or Natural?

Postby nic » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:02 pm

I've been reading this thread and wanting to join in,but honestly couldn't be bothered to try and explain things as I see and find it.
However Pineapples has explained it as I would have,except,of course I'm not in Norway,and lots of people in the UK do neuter both bitches and dogs.

I have had 3 intact males,have 2 here now,Shady and Bug,I do not intend to neuter either,unless a health issue comes up.They are 3 and 1 year old,so I guess they MUST be fighting,peeing all over my house and busting out of windows and such because they have smelt an in season bitch?
Of course they are not,because as red chrome said they are trained not to,its not hard to do!!ITs not like they become wild animals or something because they are not neutered.
I can't help but wonder if some of...yes some of,NOT all of you on here,who go on and on about neutering with no exceptions only preach it because that is all they know,they have never been around intact animals.
I'm not old by any means but I do wonder if the 'new generations' of pet owners will only believe everything MUST be neutered?No exceptions.

Another thing that gets me with all the 'you must neuter for the health benefits people',is why is ok to not neuter because you want to show your dog?
Its ok to let your pet run all the risks associated with not being neutered early if you want to show it as a hobby?The dog certainly doesn't need to be shown,there are surely no breeds which need every representative of it to be shown and bred?Showing is for the human,(and yes I know that many dogs enjoy it,but they don't need to be shown)Why is that ok to people who say everything should be neutered?

Yes I get the overpopulation thing,I'm not against other people neutering their pet if that is their or the rescues choice,indeed my bitches have always been spayed,I had one done,one came to me spayed and one from rescue had to be spayed at 6 months.

I really resent the implication that if you have an entire dog you are therefor irrepsonsible,no questions asked.
I was turned down by several rescues when I was lookng for a bitch,because I had unneutered males,even though the bitches I wanted were spayed!
So I found a rescue who could see past their list of boxes to tick,and I bought Mookie home.I find it quite ridiculous that rescue turn down 'dog people' like me,who will give a home where the dog comes to work with its owner,gets 2 walks per day,goes training and agility twice a week,gets fed good food,kept at a healthy weight etc etc,becuase my males have balls.
But sure if you want a dog you tick all the boxes specially the no other unneutered dogs one,you can have it,don't walk it,leave it alone for hours,let it get fat,let its nails get overgrown etc etc,yep that's fine so long as your other dog is neutered!

For the past 20 years I have been surrounded by dogs,MANY of them live their whole lives unneutered with no problems caused by being entire.I have seen a few pyos and that's one of the main reasons I get my girls done.

I have also taken 2 of my boys to work with me at breeding kennels where there are in season bitches within prob 40 feet of them,they still didn't turn into uncrontrolable hormone driven wild animals!

In fact all the over sexed dogs I've known were under exercised and understimulated,and were doing it more to get attention and a bit of entertainment than anything else.
Like Pineapples,I walk my dogs and they mix with other dogs off lead every day,I can honestly say that I have never had a dog involved in a serious fight,ever.Never had a dog injured by another dog or anything of the sort.(no I'm not saying all dogs need to do that)


I'm not advocating that no one get their dog neutered far from it,just don't understand why some people think neutering your dog is the only responsible thing to do?

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Re: Neutered or Natural?

Postby elegy » Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:23 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:If people are concerned that I'm saying its not important to keep your dogs contained, that is NOT what I'm saying at all. If a male dog is intact and kept responsibly, this will be a non-issue, but the fact of the matter is people don't do that, and therefore an intact males predisposition to roam should be a minor consideration. If everyone kept their dogs responsibly, half the topics debated on this forum wouldn't be an issue...


but neutering dogs isn't going to fix the stupidity of their owners. dogs allowed to roam would still be allowed to roam. at the end of the day, spayed or neutered, it's about owner responsibility.

i've worked in vet medicine for... six years? i think now. sure we see intact hbc animals, dogs and cats. but we see spayed and neutered pets too. we see intact females. the last three hbc dogs we had were speutered (two male, one female). the last hbc cat we had was a spayed female. beyond that i can't remember.

as far as prostatitis to the point where the dog couldn't pee and perianal hernias with bowel involvement, i've seen one of each, and both dogs had surgery and are fine. but i couldn't tell you the last time we had a splenic mass biopsy come back as hemangio and the dog made it more than weeks to a couple months.

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Re: Neutered or Natural?

Postby elegy » Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:24 pm

gah no edit button. prostate dog was a prostatic cyst, which was removed. i've never seen prostatitis so severe the dog couldn't pee. i've seen very sick dogs, but again, none that have died from it.

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Re: Neutered or Natural?

Postby BabyReba » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:25 pm

but neutering dogs isn't going to fix the stupidity of their owners. dogs allowed to roam would still be allowed to roam. at the end of the day, spayed or neutered, it's about owner responsibility.


i agree with this as well.

one of the things that troubles me about the "intact dogs inflict the most fatal bites" statistic is that the implication is that intact male dogs are inherently more aggressive than other dogs; and by inference that if you neuter your male, you've made your dog safer. yet so many dogs that are spayed/neutered still inflict bites--nasty ones and yes, sometimes fatal ones.

what i suspect is that the reason you have so many intact males biting is that, in this country, most irresponsible owners don't bother to spay/neuter their dogs. and so it's their dogs, which just happen to be intact, that are getting into trouble.

but here's the problem: in this country, because there are so many people with such cavalier attitudes toward dogs, shelters, rescues, humane societies, governments, veterinarians have had to go to great lengths to convince people to spay/neuter--not necessarily because they really and truly think that every unaltered animal is a danger or is going to drop dead of not-being-able-to-pee-prostate issues, but because people are desparate to stop seeing litter after litter after litter of puppies and kittens born and brought to shelters.

it sucks.

i wish it sucked enough that we could simply say, "fix your dog, don't let it run loose, otherwise you kill this puppy" to people and they'd get it and not let their dog contribute to the problem. but for a lot of people, that's not enough. so instead we have to have all these strawman arguments to drive people toward the one thing that animal-welfare people know can actually stop a dog from creating more litters: spay/neuter.


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