Acepromazine experiences

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elegy
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Re: Acepromazine experiences

Postby elegy » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:26 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:What do YOU recommend??? Pre-conditioning them by having your own fireworks shows for weeks prior to the holiday?


xanax. for those who are only interested in a pill to pop. worked great for my dog for thunderstorm season (he took it in conjunction with twice daily clomipramine), and is what the vets that i work for have started prescribing for thunderstorm and fireworks phobic dogs the past couple years. for an excessively active post-op dog that just needs to be taken down a notch, they'll still reach for the ace (and we use it as a pre-op regularly, but that's different). but for fear issues? they script a few xanax.

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Re: Acepromazine experiences

Postby msvette2u » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:42 pm

That is good information to have, thank you.
Has anyone used hydroxizine (sp?) as a sedative? I did some reading when my son was prescribed the drug for nighttime itching and apparently it too is used pre-surgically at least in humans.

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Maven
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Re: Acepromazine experiences

Postby Maven » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:08 pm

Both Kale and Maven had Ace post surgery. Maven can take 2 25 mg pills and still be semi spastic.. give her benadryl and she is stoned!!!
Kale couldn't handle a 1/2 of a 25 mg pill. He was stoned way past what he ought to have been. He was over 80 lbs, she was 50 at the time.
My horse has one 25 mg pill and she is nice and relaxed.
I really think it depends on the dog as an individual. Just my 2 cents

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nic
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Re: Acepromazine experiences

Postby nic » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:56 am

My Collie used to have that,well pretty sure it was that,we call it ACP here?
She used to take it every year for the fireworks period,which could have been each evening for 6,7 or even 10 nights in a row.
It would help lessen the panic by knocking her out.
After a few years we saw a behaviourist who advised she take phenobarbitone and I think propanalol (hard to remember that was about 8 years or so ago),along with behaviour modification techniques.After doing that I saw about a 90% improvment in her,and didn't need to knock her out each year whilst the fireworks were going off.
I don;t think she had an awful reaction to it,but it prob wouldn't be the first thing I would try if I had a dog with problems like that now.

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jtalt7
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Re: Acepromazine experiences

Postby jtalt7 » Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:37 pm

At the clinic we use Ace in combination with Torb as a pre med to sedate our surgery animals. If we have a collie type dog or one with behavior issues I will not use the Ace and triple the normal Torb dose, I wish every tech/dr who worked up premeds did the same but I am making headway with those who will listen.

I completely avoid Ace with my own dogs. They are extremely sensitive and in my experience all Bully breeds seem sensitive. When Newton went into emergency surgery almost a year ago and before I knew the extent of his behavior issues, I gave him an Ace/Torb injection as a premed to get him sedated fast and went into surgery..........he woke up HORRIBLE, extremely aggressive and any bite inhibition that he once had was out the window. It took him 2 days to work through all the drugs and become more my Newty, one of the worst experiences ever.

I have seen many dogs do ok with ace, I have seen many do horrible.......I think because of those I have seen go through a bad experience with Ace I would try to suggest an alternative to avoid the possible poor side effects.

After the surgery on Newty we saw many more less then ideal behaviors come out of Newton and started Prozac..........god send drug. I also use it for storm/firework anxiety just at a different dose then the daily therapy dose and it works wonderfully.

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Misskiwi67
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Re: Acepromazine experiences

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:21 am

We use ace/torb as a pre-med at my new job as well, and I like it a lot better than the ace/morphine or ace/atropine (my old boss only, grrr to zero pain control) we were using at my previous workplace. Its rare for us to have a dog wake up from surgery poorly... however, we wrap the dogs in blanket burritos and that seems to help a LOT. I can only think of one dog who woke up from surgery thrashing/crying in the past 8 months since I started working here... and less than 25% of the dogs even cry outside that normal short period of disorientation. We also see a lot of pit bulls at this clinic, and I've not noticed them to be more sensitive. Mostly its the floofy breeds, shih tsu's etc. that seem to be sensitive, and I figured that was more of a pain tolerance issue than a drug issue.

I wonder if its the blanket wraps or a difference in dosing thats making the difference in what we see when dogs wake up???

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Re: Acepromazine experiences

Postby jtalt7 » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:56 am

We burrito everyone too. We do a lot of rescue work at the clinic, mainly Pit Bulls, Aussies and BCs so I am sure that is why we are seeing more problems as we work on problematic dogs when it comes to sedation meds.

We are very pro pain control at the clinic, ace/torb is just the beginning for the pre meds :)

I have noticed that every TPLO that we refer out has been given Ace as part of their post op med routine and for a few it was a bad bad idea as the dogs were just nervous and pacing and the clients were not told of the possibility that could happen.

It takes good staff and good Drs to get Ace used properly in my opinion. If there is a slip in communication with any of it owners will not know what is normal and not.

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Re: Acepromazine experiences

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:44 am

Hmm, I wonder if its a dosing difference then... we don't do TPLO's, we do the suture replacement ligament surgery, and I've not seen any of these dogs up and pacing. When dogs are up post-surgery, its always because they're extremely alert and just handled their meds well, every dog is different after all, and you don't know how different until the drugs are already in their systems. We use low doses of Ace too, 0.1 mg/kg or less, in some cases I wonder if the dogs even have enough in their system to have much of an effect. Since the Torb produces enough sedation to keep the pups quiet on recovery, I've never felt the need to tweak the clinics anesthesia protocol. Its expensive, since Torb about 3-4 times more costly than any other injectable anesthetic (propofol might be close), but it works well for us. My only concern with the torb is that the pain control only lasts 30-60 minutes, but like you, its only the beginning of our pain control protocol, so we're using it for sedation, not pain control.

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Re: Acepromazine experiences

Postby mtlu » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:08 pm

jtalt7 wrote:I have noticed that every TPLO that we refer out has been given Ace as part of their post op med routine

Yes, this was our situation with Molly and I had told the vet I was seeing some signs of SA behaviors prior to the surgery. Her Ace tablets are 25mg and the vet's instructions were 1/2 or whole pill twice daily as needed (Molly weighs 48lbs). We used a 1/2 the second and third nights she was home because she wasn't sleeping but she was fine during the day so we did not give it to her during the day.

To update our situation now, we are at the tail end of week 2 post-op. We started Molly on Xanax Monday night. I was told it would take about 48 to really start having an effect so we started working on the behavior modification things on Monday anyway instead of waiting another couple of days for the Xanax to take effect. The first week she was home, we rarely left her alone as I wanted to make sure she stayed still and to make sure there weren't any signs of the various drugs (anti-biotics, anti-inflammatory, and pain management) causing any problems. Confinement is new to her because we were not able to crate train her (bad, I know) but we did a lot of desensitizing with the x-pen prior to surgery and that is how she is confined now.

At the beginning of this week, we started transitioning back to a schedule that is more like our normal M-F work schedule so we are giving her more and more alone time to see if she will be okay with that or if we need to hire someone (I already have someone in mind) to come once a day. She has been settling down really well, there is still some anxiety but she seems to get over it much quicker. I think she is sensitive to the Xanax as it starts to affect her, there is a consistent 15-20min period of anxiousness that starts a little while after each dosage of Xanax and I have found the behavior modification steps are more easily accepted after that window of anxiousness has passed.

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Re: Acepromazine experiences

Postby Maven » Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:52 pm

Sounds like things are working out well! Great job!
I too hadn't crate trained Maven. But post 2nd surgery, SHe went right in the ex pen and loved it. Of course she was quite sedated and in pain. What kind of amazed me..though it shouldn't have.. is after she was allowed more space she still often chose the ex pen. Score for the crate, ex pen thing! Glad you are able to get to a more regular schedule and she on her way to healing!!!

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Re: Acepromazine experiences

Postby jtalt7 » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:37 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:Hmm, I wonder if its a dosing difference then... we don't do TPLO's, we do the suture replacement ligament surgery, and I've not seen any of these dogs up and pacing.


I was referring to after care Ace in pill form in this instance. We do the suture repair as well at our clinic and we do not send home ace as a discharge med like the specialist does with the TPLO. I understand it is more imperative for TPLO patients to be quiet during post op, I just wish sometimes the owners were given more info on the possible side effects.

Our injectable ace for pre med is right about your dose as well.

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Re: Acepromazine experiences

Postby Tigerbeck » Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:26 pm

When my girl had her TPLO she was fine around the house because she was with me and I can tell her to lay down and help her around. Without me she was very scared and agitated at the vets. I paid to have her stay there 2 nights thinking she would have better care, but I had second thoughts after I saw her. She felt really bad so I don't even know how she mustered the strength to be such a beast in there. Generally she doesn't like to be forced into anything. I saw her through the door when I went to visit her before she saw me and she was thrashing around in her cage and barking and really knocking around a lot. Even if the cage is small that wasn't good for her leg so they gave her ace there and sent me home with a big bottle of it. I used it once as a precaution when she got home, but really didn't need it.

Becky

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Misskiwi67
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Re: Acepromazine experiences

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:35 pm

jtalt7 wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:Hmm, I wonder if its a dosing difference then... we don't do TPLO's, we do the suture replacement ligament surgery, and I've not seen any of these dogs up and pacing.


I was referring to after care Ace in pill form in this instance.


Ah ha... there's the difference then. I've never used Ace for that purpose... I recommend kong toys etc. to keep dogs mouths busy and their butts on the ground.

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Re: Acepromazine experiences

Postby kaytenmags » Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:41 pm

maggie's had 2 TPLO surgeries, and she's never been given ACE as a take-home drug. it's possible that they gave it to her in the vet hospital, but not to my knowledge.

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dragynflye
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Re: Acepromazine experiences

Postby dragynflye » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:50 pm

ace is very dangerous, often deadly, to boxers. since river is potentially a boxer mix (which is what i adopted her as, i don't see it, though), i make sure ever vet who sees her knows not to use ace. same for watson (the boxer). i've talked to my regular vet about it, i've written notes for both of their files, and across the outside, in big letters, it says "NO ACEPROMAZINE". every time we have to see a different vet, for whatever reason, i refuse to let them near the dogs until i stress the importance of NO ACE!


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