Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

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starrlamia
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Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

Postby starrlamia » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:09 pm

I've seen reference a lot to breeders x-raying their dog during pregnancy to determine how many pups are in there.

My question is, is there an increased health risk like in people? They used to x-ray moms (I believe in the 20s or 30s?) to determine if their pelivs was "large" enough and discovered it caused a high incidence of cancer in babies, would that not be the same in dogs?

Just curious!

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Re: Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:05 pm

It is not as risky as the risk of having a puppy left in the mom after a long and arduous birthing of multiple puppies. Its not unusual for us to see first time moms who have only half their litter vaginally before showing up at the vet with a tired mom still full of pups.

I heard somewhere there is just as much radiation exposure from an x-ray as there is on a transcontinental airplane flight...

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Re: Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

Postby jamielvsaustin » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:26 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:I heard somewhere there is just as much radiation exposure from an x-ray as there is on a transcontinental airplane flight...



I can't speak to the original question, but I heard this as well...and it was during the initial uproar of the new scanners they have at the airport. Someone tried to say it has unnecessary radiation exposure...and the retort was that it had just as much as the flight the passenger was likely to go on...which also is the same as a reg x-ray.

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Re: Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

Postby BrokenAquarian » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:49 pm

jamielvsaustin wrote:and the retort was that it had just as much as the flight the passenger was likely to go on...which also is the same as a reg x-ray.


Wouldn't that mean that they are now getting DOUBLE the amount of radiation, because of the scanning procedure?
Getting an MRI is like getting 15 X-rays at once. The heavy post-cancer screenings were giving people cancer. Imagine that.

The answer to the OP is yes, it is increasing the risk of cancer.

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Re: Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

Postby Adrianne » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:57 pm

I have a few breeding friends who won't xray expectant mothers. I believe they only ultrasound, I'm not sure.

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Re: Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:43 pm

Adrianne wrote:I have a few breeding friends who won't xray expectant mothers. I believe they only ultrasound, I'm not sure.


But an ultrasound will not give a puppy count...

I think the amount of radiation our dogs are exposed to over their short lives decreases their risks in comparison to humans who live 8 times longer... but then, I don't think it has been studied either. Maybe I'll jump on the vet boards and do some reading...

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Re: Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:01 pm

Here's the word from the experts"
Radiography late in gestation for puppy number is no different in its effects than radiography a puppy for, say, a fracture.

There is absolutely no evidence that a radiograph at this stage will cause any problems.....including neoplasia.

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Re: Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

Postby Scarlet » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:33 pm

BrokenAquarian wrote:
jamielvsaustin wrote:Wouldn't that mean that they are now getting DOUBLE the amount of radiation, because of the scanning procedure?
Getting an MRI is like getting 15 X-rays at once..



Just to keep people informed since I'e worked with these types of radiation in the past. I believe you are confusing a CAT scan with an MRI(Magnetic Resonance Imaging) during an MRI you only are exposed to electromagnetic low frequency radiation which is not harmful(or has yet to be shown to cause harm) as long as you don't have anything magnetic implanted in your body anywhere.

Where in a CAT(Computed Axial Tomography) scan you are sliced up by up to 200 x-ray beams(full body) some of them intersecting even at times, I think they have tried to minimize that in the new CAT scan machines though….. they are still about equal to 10- 50+ X-rays for a typical CAT.

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Re: Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

Postby starrlamia » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:39 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:Here's the word from the experts"
Radiography late in gestation for puppy number is no different in its effects than radiography a puppy for, say, a fracture.

There is absolutely no evidence that a radiograph at this stage will cause any problems.....including neoplasia.

thats interesting, I wonder why it effects dogs less then people!

Thanks for all of the replies guys, it is definately an interesting topic.

Oh and Misskiwi, is it that all the pups are packed in there that makes it hard to determine the amount on ultrasound? Cause they can do it for peoples...

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Re: Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:41 pm

starrlamia wrote:Oh and Misskiwi, is it that all the pups are packed in there that makes it hard to determine the amount on ultrasound? Cause they can do it for peoples...


Right, I can tell you there is one, two, sometimes 3-4 if they are far away from each other on the left and right sides, but getting an accurate count is extremely difficult in dogs/cats.

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Re: Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

Postby BrokenAquarian » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:52 pm

Scarlet wrote:
BrokenAquarian wrote:
jamielvsaustin wrote:Wouldn't that mean that they are now getting DOUBLE the amount of radiation, because of the scanning procedure?
Getting an MRI is like getting 15 X-rays at once..



Just to keep people informed since I'e worked with these types of radiation in the past. I believe you are confusing a CAT scan with an MRI(Magnetic Resonance Imaging) during an MRI you only are exposed to electromagnetic low frequency radiation which is not harmful(or has yet to be shown to cause harm) as long as you don't have anything magnetic implanted in your body anywhere.

Where in a CAT(Computed Axial Tomography) scan you are sliced up by up to 200 x-ray beams(full body) some of them intersecting even at times, I think they have tried to minimize that in the new CAT scan machines though….. they are still about equal to 10- 50+ X-rays for a typical CAT.


Oh yeah - my bad :oops:
My dad had 4 scans in 2 years - post cancer that's equal to a CRAP LOAD of x rays 'n' radiation :wow


I don't think I'd have x rays done on a pregnant dog, but I would brush up and study all of the regular and trouble symptoms of laboring and post laboring dogs, while also having a vet on call, just in case.

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Re: Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:57 pm

BrokenAquarian wrote:I don't think I'd have x rays done on a pregnant dog, but I would brush up and study all of the regular and trouble symptoms of laboring and post laboring dogs, while also having a vet on call, just in case.


I get annoyed when people don't get an x-ray on day 55. How am I supposed to tell you if your dog is done having puppies at 2am if you thought your Weimeraner should have 8-12 pups and they've only had 4 if you didn't do the recommended pre-natal care? Sorry, you're just going to have to bring that nursing momma and her 4 hour old puppies into the clinic for your $88 exam fee and x-rays...

And dogs with only a single puppy should be scheduled for C-section... singletons are MUCH larger and notorious for causing problems in the birth canal. If you didn't time your bitch perfectly, x-rays can help with timing of a C-section so it doesn't have to be done at 2am with a skeleton staff.

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Re: Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

Postby buckaroo » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:04 pm

Dogs don't live long enough for the radiation to effect them like it does us. Radiation thyroid treatment in cats would kill a human but is fine for the cat.

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Re: Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

Postby Midnight Sun APBT » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:19 pm

We've always xray'd never had an issue.

I think the safety of my bitch is worth the tiny amount of risk.

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Re: Breeding Q- No Im not breeding my speutered dogs :P

Postby starrlamia » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:23 pm

Midnight Sun APBT wrote:We've always xray'd never had an issue.

I think the safety of my bitch is worth the tiny amount of risk.


(not directed at you) but i think its funny that if the risk was the same as with people, people would not do it to themselves and risk their baby with cancer but would expose dogs to it.

buckaroo wrote:Dogs don't live long enough for the radiation to effect them like it does us. Radiation thyroid treatment in cats would kill a human but is fine for the cat.

interesting!

I just found this on health canada as a reference

The Risks to a Fetus from X-rays
Fetuses are more susceptable than adults to the damaging effects of x-rays, partly because their cells are rapidly dividing and growing into specialized cells and tissues. If x-rays cause changes in these cells, there is a slightly increased chance of birth defects or certain illnesses, such as leukemia, later in life. However, most birth defects and childhood diseases are not attributed to exposure to any known harmful agent during pregnancy.

Damage to fetal cells may result in miscarriage, birth defects, or mental impairment, depending on the amount of radiation and the stage of pregnancy. The risks are higher during the first three months of pregnancy (first trimester). It is important to note that most of these effects do not usually occur below 100 mGy - more radiation than three pelvic CT scans or 20 abdominal x-rays.

There is an increased risk of childhood cancer from DNA damage regardless of when in pregnancy the radiation occurred. The risk is believed to be proportional to the amount of radiation, i.e. the smaller the amount of radiation, the smaller the risk of cancer. Most studies show no increase in childhood cancer from small amounts of radiation. However, one study identifies the chance of a childhood cancer from abdominal x-rays (in the 10 mGy range) at about one in 1,000 births. In comparison, the chance of a childhood cancer in the general population is about two to three in 1,000 births.


Misskiwi67 wrote:
starrlamia wrote:Oh and Misskiwi, is it that all the pups are packed in there that makes it hard to determine the amount on ultrasound? Cause they can do it for peoples...


Right, I can tell you there is one, two, sometimes 3-4 if they are far away from each other on the left and right sides, but getting an accurate count is extremely difficult in dogs/cats.

makes sense!

thanks for humoring me guys, I dont want to start any heated debates or anything about whether you would or wouldnt do it etc, I was just wondering more if there was a difference and what that was.
:)


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