Lower Protein Food ??

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.
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lilangel
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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby lilangel » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:34 pm

barley or oats. 8)

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FBODGRL
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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby FBODGRL » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:46 pm

Isn't there an issue with the protein amount being different than what the label says because of processing?

I thought I read that somewhere recently although I can not remember where.

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Red
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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby Red » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:54 pm

lilangel wrote:barley or oats. 8)


Why, what is wrong with "pats", beside the fact that the O is close to the P on a keyboard? lol

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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby ProudMommy77 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:23 am

Red wrote:To add to what Lilangel already said...diets that are high in carbohydrates can actually increase the tryptophan level available for serotonin synthesis (thryptophan, an aminoacid, is a precursor of serotonin). One study to look up could be the one done by DeNapoli, Dodman, Shusterm Rand and Gross (2000), in which was shown the relationship between reduced protein levels and some form of aggression. Probably the behaviorist Pibbles ATL saw suggested that the carbohydrate meal is given within two or three hours after the protein ingestion, because of how insuline operates in response to carbohydrate ingestion. Rice (whole grain possibly), sweet potatoes, barely or pats are definitely preferable to corn.


Just out of total curiosity, how would a raw diet (prey model) compare to this, if the dog was having issues? Would you just carbs to the diet to even it out? I am asking because at the mondio club we started training at, there is a GSD who has some OCD issues (licking the paws, etc. the vet ruled out any medical condition, and told the owner her dog is basically OCD. She feeds a prey model raw diet.)

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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:31 am

ams036 wrote:A little OT but I currently feed my dogs Orijen 6 fish which is 38% crude protein. Is this too high and should I have their liver enzymes checked? They have had no signs of aggression triggered by the higher intake of protein, one is a complete lover that knows no enemy, and the other has always had dog reactivity issues, but nothing new since on this diet. They seem to do very well on this food, they have stellar coats, always clean bills of health at the vet, and are very active and fit. But I don't want to be overloading their bodies with protein if it is going to affect their overall health in the future either.


That is the food my dog and my parents dog used to eat. Shambles tested high liver enzymes, Buddy Girl was in what looked like early renal disease, was PU/PD and incontinent. Taking her off the food meant I was also able to take her off stilbestrol.

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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby Pibbles ATL » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:36 am

Adrianne wrote:Do you have a link to a thread or can you explain what his behaviors are that you're seeking to change via diet? I don't want to derail this thread if you don't want to and I have no expertise on the subject but I'm curious as I haven't really heard of this method before. I mean changing of diet helps human kids with attention disorders as well as other conditions so it may not be far fetched, I'd just love to see some reasoning and especially the studies on the subject.


The behaviorist is supposed to give us a full written report of everything we discussed in the consultation so hopefully she'll list some studies because I'm interested and would like to read up more on it. Like I said in my OP she said changing his food could or could not have an affect on his behavior so it was up to us if we wanted to change his food. We are focusing more on de-sensitizing him and re-training him but we figured we'd look more into changing his food.


He's having two major behavior problems: 1) He's showing fear aggression whenever my boyfriend tries to shut the crate door. It's progressed from a stare to now he will lunge out of the crate snarling if my boyfriend even walks near the crate. 2) He 'wigs out' when we are outdoors and there are other dogs around and lot of commotion. He starts to act very frantic, pulling on his leash (which he normally doesn't do), whining, chattering his teeth, jumping up in the air. He gets extremely worked up and will start jumping on my boyfriend and nipping at his hands.

In general he just gets worked up really easily and you can tell it's not a happy playful worked up. He chatters his teeth a lot and tucks his tail. We ordered him a DAP collar so maybe that will help some as well.

The TOTW he is currently eating is 32% crude protein so I might just going with something in the low 20's, possibly the Platinum that Enigma mentioned.

Dexter is only 10 months old, will feeding him a 'senior' formula stunt his growth or have any negative effects on him??

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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby WackyJacki » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:58 am

We had the lower protein diet suggested to us when we first brought Stella to a behaviorist for an eval., she was approx. 10-11 months old. She made it clear that while it might make a difference, it also may not do a damn thing. However, it's worth looking at.

After much research and consideration, I actually decided on the opposite route and went to a high protein, low carb diet. A raw one. She started showing many health benefits, both physical and mental. Less spazzy (she's still a spazz, that's her personality!), more focus, but no real change to her DA level.

The only thing that has helped her be less reactive is a lot of positive reinforcement training, using counter conditioning, along with some other methods.

Just my experience. :thumbsup:

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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby WackyJacki » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:06 am

Sorry for the DP. :oops:

Another thing that has helped her overall level of anxiety is 5-HTP. It is the immediate precursor of serotonin, one of the brain's neurotransmitters responsible for "feeling good". People use it for depression, anxiety, etc.

There aren't a lot of studies done on it in dogs, so you may have trouble finding a lot of info, but it's another thing worth researching. It's very safe and inexpensive. Stella has been on it for approx. 2 years. NOT a miracle worker, but it helps!

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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby kaytenmags » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:24 am

WackyJacki wrote:After much research and consideration, I actually decided on the opposite route and went to a high protein, low carb diet. A raw one.

generally speaking, raw diets aren't high protein.
ie: a whole raw broiler chicken is only 14% protein. (from the USDA website)

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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby WackyJacki » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:55 am

kaytenmags wrote:
WackyJacki wrote:After much research and consideration, I actually decided on the opposite route and went to a high protein, low carb diet. A raw one.

generally speaking, raw diets aren't high protein.
ie: a whole raw broiler chicken is only 14% protein. (from the USDA website)


That's because they have so much more water content than kibble, so the overall percentage of protein is lower. However, they are eating a diet that consists of more protein rich calories than carbs, which is very different from kibble.

At least, this is my understanding....? lol

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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:47 am

ProudMommy77 wrote: I am asking because at the mondio club we started training at, there is a GSD who has some OCD issues (licking the paws, etc. the vet ruled out any medical condition, and told the owner her dog is basically OCD. She feeds a prey model raw diet.)


I've never met a dog who TRUELY had OCD... every licking dog I've met has been found to have some sort of allergic disease or arthritis... I would recommend this particular dog sees a dermatologist :D

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Adrianne
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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby Adrianne » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:27 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
ProudMommy77 wrote: I am asking because at the mondio club we started training at, there is a GSD who has some OCD issues (licking the paws, etc. the vet ruled out any medical condition, and told the owner her dog is basically OCD. She feeds a prey model raw diet.)


I've never met a dog who TRUELY had OCD... every licking dog I've met has been found to have some sort of allergic disease or arthritis... I would recommend this particular dog sees a dermatologist :D


We had a shiba foster who had an obsessive licking habit where he would lick everything and lick the air when not licking a surface. If that wasn't a form of ocd I'd say it was a neurological condition. He was a puppymill dog whom we're not going on a limb to assume he was highly inbred and had a lot missing from his brain.

Hannah, our rat terrier, will obsessively pluck fabric strands when stressed.

I'm not sure if either case are true OCD but neither proved to be an allergy issue. Of course neither were "self licking".

Red, Jacki, and Pibbles ATL thank you for that info. Pibbles, I would check with a vet or better yet a nutritionist but I don't assume feeding a low cal or even a senior formula will be highly detrimental to a young dog. I would though start my search with the first food I linked. Natural balance is a great food ime and has helped a couple of my own and fosters with allergies. They seem to provide good foods that satisfy needs.

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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:33 pm

Nat Balance is my fave commercial food too since California Nat got bought out.

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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby ProudMommy77 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:55 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
ProudMommy77 wrote: I am asking because at the mondio club we started training at, there is a GSD who has some OCD issues (licking the paws, etc. the vet ruled out any medical condition, and told the owner her dog is basically OCD. She feeds a prey model raw diet.)


I've never met a dog who TRUELY had OCD... every licking dog I've met has been found to have some sort of allergic disease or arthritis... I would recommend this particular dog sees a dermatologist :D


the dog is off..if that is the best way to put it. He's ummmmmm..strange in many ways, I honestly thought a lot of it is due to stress. they have been seeking out a behaviorist to get to the bottom of his issues. But, haven't had any success in finding one that they like.

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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby Pibbles ATL » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:00 pm

@WackyJacki Thanks for sharing your experience. At first we were so embarrassed by Dexter's behavior and felt like he was a lunatic or there was something wrong with him. It helps so much to hear other people going through similar situations and having positive results. We've started the counter conditioning and we've seen an improvement in only a few days. It's like a huge weight has been lifted. I'll definitely look into the 5-HTP as well.


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