Lower Protein Food ??

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ams036
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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby ams036 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:28 pm

AllisonPibbleLvr wrote:
ams036 wrote:A little OT but I currently feed my dogs Orijen 6 fish which is 38% crude protein. Is this too high and should I have their liver enzymes checked? They have had no signs of aggression triggered by the higher intake of protein, one is a complete lover that knows no enemy, and the other has always had dog reactivity issues, but nothing new since on this diet. They seem to do very well on this food, they have stellar coats, always clean bills of health at the vet, and are very active and fit. But I don't want to be overloading their bodies with protein if it is going to affect their overall health in the future either.


That is the food my dog and my parents dog used to eat. Shambles tested high liver enzymes, Buddy Girl was in what looked like early renal disease, was PU/PD and incontinent. Taking her off the food meant I was also able to take her off stilbestrol.



I will definitely speak with their vet and get them both tested then. They have done so well on it, but I hate to think it could be harming them. Thank you.

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WackyJacki
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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby WackyJacki » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:18 pm

It can be very stressful, especially at first when you're trying to figure out exactly what's going on. Rest assured that there are many of us that deal with the same issues. :)

One of my favorite books in regards to this issue: Click to Calm by Emma Parsons. An excellent, practical book with a lot of useful counter conditioning exercises. You can find a used one on Amazon for around $15.

Anything by Patricia McConnell, Jean McDonald, Turid Rugaas, Brenda Aloff, etc., are worth looking into. I've found many of them at my library. :)

The more I soaked in about dog behavior in general, the more confident and prepared I felt. Yes, there are still times I want to cry lol but the good days outweigh the bad, and every second is worth it.

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Pibbles ATL
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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby Pibbles ATL » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:30 am

I think I'm going to go with the Natural Balance sweet potato and venison or sweet potato and bison (whatever they have in stock at the pet store I shop at). They both have 20% protein, I figure that's 12% less than the TOTW he is on so if will be any behavior change that's a big enough difference in protein to see a change, if at all. Thanks for all the suggestions everyone! :cheers:

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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby WackyJacki » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:16 am

Best of luck! :D

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Cherry
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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby Cherry » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:37 am

About 2 months ago, we switched Cherry from Wellness Ocean Core to Natural Balance Potato & Fish. She has horrible allergies and I was really afraid to take her off the Core. But her liver and kidney levels were consistently high over time so I made the change. She's doing FANTASTIC on it and still looks great!

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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby lilangel » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:23 am

ProudMommy77 wrote:
Red wrote:To add to what Lilangel already said...diets that are high in carbohydrates can actually increase the tryptophan level available for serotonin synthesis (thryptophan, an aminoacid, is a precursor of serotonin). One study to look up could be the one done by DeNapoli, Dodman, Shusterm Rand and Gross (2000), in which was shown the relationship between reduced protein levels and some form of aggression. Probably the behaviorist Pibbles ATL saw suggested that the carbohydrate meal is given within two or three hours after the protein ingestion, because of how insuline operates in response to carbohydrate ingestion. Rice (whole grain possibly), sweet potatoes, barely or pats are definitely preferable to corn.


Just out of total curiosity, how would a raw diet (prey model) compare to this, if the dog was having issues? Would you just carbs to the diet to even it out? I am asking because at the mondio club we started training at, there is a GSD who has some OCD issues (licking the paws, etc. the vet ruled out any medical condition, and told the owner her dog is basically OCD. She feeds a prey model raw diet.)


The mondio GSD with these behaviors is probably not going to be helped by a change in diet alone. What the complex carbs do is suppress other amino acids like Tyrosine, (which make the brain more active,) thus allowing more Tryptophan to be available for Serotonin and Melatonin creation. This has a calming effect alongside proteinaceous foods by helping maintain the available Tryptophan levels and decreasing available Tyrosine. Adding complex carbs to the GSD's diet probably won't hurt, but a raw diet is inherently lower in protein than an average kibble these days anyway. Boosting/ adding Tryptophan will help calm the dog somewhat but there are surely underlying issues: management, behavioral that will also have to be addressed. A dog that has learned to soothe itself or alleviate boredom by barking is still going to bark when not taught an alternate more desirable outlet. I see this kind of thing all the time in understimulated, bored and/ or anxious energetic working dogs. It is exacerbated but by no means unique to handlers that are themselves hyper or scattered, are expecting far too much from a dog that is just not trained to criteria/ confused and is anxious to begin with, do not condition their dogs to be calm because they think a working dog should be a nutjob or that some breeds are just naturally hyperactive nutjobs etc. People see my Malinois laying quietly in her crate and think their own dogs are just genetically nuts or I got lucky. Nope. It took work and recognizing/ reinforcing the behavior I wanted. A change in diet alone is not a magic pill.

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ProudMommy77
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Re: Lower Protein Food ??

Postby ProudMommy77 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:28 pm

lilangel wrote:The mondio GSD with these behaviors is probably not going to be helped by a change in diet alone. What the complex carbs do is suppress other amino acids like Tyrosine, (which make the brain more active,) thus allowing more Tryptophan to be available for Serotonin and Melatonin creation. This has a calming effect alongside proteinaceous foods by helping maintain the available Tryptophan levels and decreasing available Tyrosine. Adding complex carbs to the GSD's diet probably won't hurt, but a raw diet is inherently lower in protein than an average kibble these days anyway. Boosting/ adding Tryptophan will help calm the dog somewhat but there are surely underlying issues: management, behavioral that will also have to be addressed. A dog that has learned to soothe itself or alleviate boredom by barking is still going to bark when not taught an alternate more desirable outlet. I see this kind of thing all the time in understimulated, bored and/ or anxious energetic working dogs. It is exacerbated but by no means unique to handlers that are themselves hyper or scattered, are expecting far too much from a dog that is just not trained to criteria/ confused and is anxious to begin with, do not condition their dogs to be calm because they think a working dog should be a nutjob or that some breeds are just naturally hyperactive nutjobs etc. People see my Malinois laying quietly in her crate and think their own dogs are just genetically nuts or I got lucky. Nope. It took work and recognizing/ reinforcing the behavior I wanted. A change in diet alone is not a magic pill.


thanks for answering me. :thumbsup: (the GSD is there training Schutzhund), and I agree about the calming behaviors. I noticed today, when she brought him out, he was instantly whining, and doing that stepping in place thing. (it's the only way I can describe the behavior). I didn't get a chance to ask her if she found a appropriate behaviorist yet.


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