"Dogs need by products"-Vet

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.

Re: "Dogs need by products"-Vet

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:12 pm

WackyJacki wrote:I am curious where that information comes from, because I have always read that their digestive systems are virtually identical? I realize that dogs are opportunistic of course.

If you could provide the studies/science behind the differences in their digestive systems and dietary requirements I would be genuinely interested in seeing them. (I'm not saying that to be snarky, I really am curious!)


I struggled to find the exact study, but the nutritionists refer to a study in 2001 published in Science that details the genetics and evolution of dogs, as well as development into 5 separate "lines". There is TONS of research on the genetic co-evolution of dogs and humans...

Here is an excerpt from a conference proceeding that also hints at what I'm speaking of...
Behavioral Genetics Update (CAH3)
Western Veterinary Conference 2005
Karen L. Overall, MA, VMD, PhD, DACVB
Center for Neurobiology and Behavior, Psychiatry Department, School of Medicine, University of Pennsylvania
Philadelphia, PA, USA
18277733

Objectives of the Presentation
We now have a sufficiently dense map of the canine genome to begin to ask questions about heritability of types of behaviors. A sequela to this should also be the full and functional investigation of cognition in dogs. Part of this understanding will include the heritability of specific suites of genes that may allow for a more plastic nervous system response in learning.

Key Points
1. Data from 85 domestic dog breeds indicate that differences among breeds account for about 30% of all genetic variation.
2. When breeds are clustered according to genetic similarities they become groups in patterns that would be supported by breed and the tasks that breeds have been asked to execute, so much of this 30% of variation should be in things that dogs do as parts of jobs, or in their behavior, 'temperament', or tendency to behave in certain ways in certain situations.
3. Although the dog genome is arranged differently than is the human genome, when like sequences are compared, the canine genome maps more closely to the human genome than does the mouse genome. In fact, many of the ~360 canine genetic disorders resemble those seen in humans, and 2/3 of the relevant canine DNA sequences / genes appear to be orthologs of those in humans. These data and conclusions are not surprising. In all likelihood, domestic dogs--which branched off from wolves over 135,000 years ago--were not 'domesticated' by humans, but, instead, co-evolved with them.
Overview of the Issue
Dogs share both foraging mode and a virtually identical social system with humans, and have co-evolved for co-operative work with humans for approximately 135,000 years, with intense selection for specific suites of behavioral traits (e.g., the development of breeds) occurring in the last 12,000-15,000 years. Dogs mirror humans in hallmarks of social development. Recent data indicate that dogs are significantly more comparable to humans than are chimpanzees and wolves with regard to the complex social cognition involved in understanding long-distance signals that indicate where food is hidden. Dogs are further able to communicate this information to other dogs. Also, like humans, dogs suffer from what we recognize as maladaptive anxiety--that which interferes with normal functioning--which was selected against during the co-evolution of dogs and humans.

Dog breeds were developed on the basis of specific work or jobs (e.g., border collies, Australian shepherds, Australian cattle dogs [herding]; Labrador retrievers [retrieving in water]; beagles [alerting for hidden prey]; Jack Russell terriers [tracking and killing small prey], Belgian Malinois [herding, guarding, and flock protection], et cetera). Breeds selected for different behaviors or jobs express different manifestations of extreme anxiety. Understanding how genetics works at the macro and micro level can help us understand these important issues.
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Re: "Dogs need by products"-Vet

Postby 1lila1 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:43 am

WackyJacki wrote:If you could provide the studies/science behind the differences in their digestive systems and dietary requirements I would be genuinely interested in seeing them. (I'm not saying that to be snarky, I really am curious!)


There are no studies that say that because a dogs digestive system is identical to a wolfs. Dogs and wolves are "less" carnivorous than cats but they certainly did not evolve eating corn or any of the carbohydrates they pack into the processed pellets that pass for dog food. Just because they can survive on foods they did not evolve eating doesn't mean these foods are healthy for them.
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Re:

Postby kagnew » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:47 am

Odnarb wrote:Nutrition is like religion. Everybody is convinced that THEIR way is the right way, and everybody else is wrong. But, nobody REALLY knows for sure. Look how often nutritional information changes for humans!

Everybody needs to do what is best for their own dogs. Do the research, and do what is best for your family and your pets. Don't let anybody try to get you down because your way is the wrong way. Their way is going to be wrong for somebody, and it may be you.

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:goodpost: And I do agree completely! If your dog is thriving, happy and healthy and you are happy with your present food choices - if it ain't broke, don't fix it!!! A dear friend recently sent his 16 year old GSD to the bridge after a lifetime of Nutro kibble. That's a LONG life for that breed! He was STINKY and greasy and kind of pathetic his last few years, but he kept going. My friend was really intrigued with my results, but was simply afraid to change anything. And I supported his decision whole-heartedly. He LOVED that boy and did what he was comfortable with and had 16 years with him!

Regarding Rudy, the wonder Pug. Prior to feeding him a raw diet he stunk, had terrible dandruff and a dull, greasy coat - albeit full. He was slowing down, had lost the sparkle in his eyes and was losing muscle tone. He wasn't thin, but his spine, ribs and hips were showing. (I called it "geriatric wasting" for lack of a better term!) My vet had also recommended surgical dental cleaning. I was getting worried. Long story short, I started feeding a raw diet and a couple of months later heard of a "real" vet who advocated this (as it turns out BARF). When I took him for a physical and bloodwork, she suggested we let him continue on it for a few more months before doing his teeth. I took him back and she told me to keep doing what I was doing. About 6 months in I realized that Rudy's spine and hips were no longer prominent - and that remains so to this day.

Would Rudy still be with me had I continued feeding kibble? Probably! But he would NOT be in the condition he is now. He would probably have had at least 1 or 2 surgical dental cleanings (and being a brachycephalic breed with an over-crowded mouth pretty much guarantees it). Other than being virtually deaf and having lovely grey eyebrows and belly, he is fit and bouncy and his velvety black coat is odorless. I realize that is anecdotal evidence, but there is a WHACK of it out there. And unfortunately precious little in the way of scientific study. Be that as it may, you could not pay me to go back based on my own results and those of my many friends who feed this way.

As I said - wee Ivy will be the one to watch as she was 3 months old when she started on it... FWIW - Haggis is a youngster at 2ish as well.

I'm not trying to force my choices on anybody, but without a lot of veterinary support and studies, this is the sort of information I clung to when I made the leap so I don't apologize for sharing my experiences and insight! I am passionate, but I DO understand it isn't for everybody - perhaps not even for every dog.

kathy
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Re: "Dogs need by products"-Vet

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:31 pm

1lila1 wrote:
WackyJacki wrote:If you could provide the studies/science behind the differences in their digestive systems and dietary requirements I would be genuinely interested in seeing them. (I'm not saying that to be snarky, I really am curious!)


There are no studies that say that because a dogs digestive system is identical to a wolfs. Dogs and wolves are "less" carnivorous than cats but they certainly did not evolve eating corn or any of the carbohydrates they pack into the processed pellets that pass for dog food. Just because they can survive on foods they did not evolve eating doesn't mean these foods are healthy for them.


This is also false though... there IS a happy medium. Dogs do NOT need diets of purely meat and bone... they can thrive with carbohydrates in their diet, and grains like corn are an excellent source of surprisingly highly digestible protein, carbohydrates and many other nutrients. There are LOTS of studies that prove this.

A dogs digestive system is grossly identical to a wolfs, but there is 15,000 years of HEAVY selective pressure dictating the biochemistry of the canine digestive system. They are NOT the same species, and they do NOT have the same nutritional needs.

I agree that the heavily processed pellets we call dog food is probably not the ideal diet, not any more than it would be for people. However, you may be surprised to find the ideal diet for people IS the ideal diet for dogs too. Fresh, whole foods, including a variety of meats, grains and cooked vegetables will likely turn out to be the ideal diet for dogs, just like it is for people.
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Re: "Dogs need by products"-Vet

Postby El_EmDubya » Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:29 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:This is also false though... there IS a happy medium. Dogs do NOT need diets of purely meat and bone... they can thrive with carbohydrates in their diet, and grains like corn are an excellent source of surprisingly highly digestible protein, carbohydrates and many other nutrients. There are LOTS of studies that prove this.


And those studies were sign, sealed and delivered by Big Ag, Consumer Products Firms, etc.


Rolls eyes...heavy sigh.


Ever heard of "Metabolic Syndrome"? Just read up on what grains, HFCS, and all the other processed stuff is doing to people. Then look at the dogs coming into your clinic. It's the SAME issue.

There is a reason VETS WERE THE FIRST to start seeing what OUR DIETS would become.

Yes, dogs co-evolved...over 100,000 years together and only the last 10,000 with grains and a non-nomadic lifestyle. The breed specialization correlates to going from a nomadic to ag based culture, which means 90% of this evolution occurred prior to grains being introduced. (Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies is a GREAT book by Jared Diamond that covers a lot of the ag based changes and flow of grain culture. It is required reading for Cornell's freshmen classes.)

There is a reason that corn kernels "go straight through". That is because plants also co-evolved. The grains and seeds specifically evolved to not be digested. Corn's outer "coat" is a pretty badazz chemistry that LOGICALLY isn't healthy to eat, for anyone.
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Re: "Dogs need by products"-Vet

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:56 pm

El_EmDubya wrote:Yes, dogs co-evolved...over 100,000 years together and only the last 10,000 with grains and a non-nomadic lifestyle. The breed specialization correlates to going from a nomadic to ag based culture, which means 90% of this evolution occurred prior to grains being introduced. (Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies is a GREAT book by Jared Diamond that covers a lot of the ag based changes and flow of grain culture. It is required reading for Cornell's freshmen classes.)


And how many nomads do you know that eat a heavy protein diet? VERY FEW... meat is a commodity that doesn't go very far when split among a group of 20 people... nomads are hunter/GATHERERS...

Look at any 3rd world country and their diet, its primarily vegetable/grain (potatoes, rice), NOT meat. Meat is expensive and difficult to obtain and/or produce. Only the rich countries have access to the amount of meat that we enjoy on a daily basis.
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Re: "Dogs need by products"-Vet

Postby El_EmDubya » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:24 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
And how many nomads do you know that eat a heavy protein diet? VERY FEW... meat is a commodity that doesn't go very far when split among a group of 20 people... nomads are hunter/GATHERERS...


It isn't about the meat, it is about the grain. IBS, leaky gut, seratonin issues...brain chemistry. Remember these dogs weren't 100% dependent upon humans for feed. They probably had a symbolotic relationship, cleaning up the rodent and insect population on their own, and THEN cleaning up the scraps not eaten by humans, rather than being dependent on humans to source and provide their food.

Misskiwi67 wrote:Look at any 3rd world country and their diet, its primarily vegetable/grain (potatoes, rice), NOT meat. Meat is expensive and difficult to obtain and/or produce. Only the rich countries have access to the amount of meat that we enjoy on a daily basis.


Yes, that's a Neolithic diet (ag based), not Paleolithic (hunter/gatherer based). You have to go back 10,000 years to see how healthy we were without grains in our diets. Recent history isn't "Normal" or healthy, and that is my point. You're stressing the co-evolution aspect, yet neglecting the changes seen in the last 10,000 years as if they are insignificant. Those changes are HUGE w/r/t how our physiology works.

Oh, and having spent about 6 months of my life living in jungles, you'd be surprised at how much meat/protein there is in an average hunter/gatherer diet. Yes, roots do play into the meals, but so do fruits, nuts, and insects. (I must say that tarantula is delicious when roasted over an open fire.)
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Re: "Dogs need by products"-Vet

Postby BrokenAquarian » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:11 pm

If we were co-evolving with dogs and hunter/gatherers, wouldn't we be using the dogs to hunt?
I sure as hell would be.

Later, we could also be eating them too - they're easy to breed and live off of scraps. I've heard they taste good too.
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Re: Re: "Dogs need by products"-Vet

Postby Odnarb » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:24 pm

El_EmDubya wrote:(I must say that tarantula is delicious when roasted over an open fire.)



That horrifies me. What is the texture like?

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Re: "Dogs need by products"-Vet

Postby 1lila1 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:27 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
1lila1 wrote:
WackyJacki wrote:If you could provide the studies/science behind the differences in their digestive systems and dietary requirements I would be genuinely interested in seeing them. (I'm not saying that to be snarky, I really am curious!)


There are no studies that say that because a dogs digestive system is identical to a wolfs. Dogs and wolves are "less" carnivorous than cats but they certainly did not evolve eating corn or any of the carbohydrates they pack into the processed pellets that pass for dog food. Just because they can survive on foods they did not evolve eating doesn't mean these foods are healthy for them.


This is also false though... there IS a happy medium. Dogs do NOT need diets of purely meat and bone... they can thrive with carbohydrates in their diet, and grains like corn are an excellent source of surprisingly highly digestible protein, carbohydrates and many other nutrients. There are LOTS of studies that prove this.

A dogs digestive system is grossly identical to a wolfs, but there is 15,000 years of HEAVY selective pressure dictating the biochemistry of the canine digestive system. They are NOT the same species, and they do NOT have the same nutritional needs.

I agree that the heavily processed pellets we call dog food is probably not the ideal diet, not any more than it would be for people. However, you may be surprised to find the ideal diet for people IS the ideal diet for dogs too. Fresh, whole foods, including a variety of meats, grains and cooked vegetables will likely turn out to be the ideal diet for dogs, just like it is for people.


I'm still not sure exactly what is false in my post. Dogs and wolves are not the same species but as a person of science I'm sure you're aware that "species" is a anthropomorphic label we place to categorize living beings. Just because we categorize the two as separate species does not mean that evolution has dictated that domestic dogs "thrive" (a subjective term in the extreme) on a diet they did not evolve eating.

Dog's "need" a species appropriate diet as much as humans "need" a healthy balanced natural diet. Humans and dogs can both subsist on less than ideal diets. If subsisting equated to thriving I guess there would be no argument here. IMO it does not. The domestic dog we know today evolved due to the incredible genetic diversity of wolves but just because an animal can survive long enough to reproduce on a given diet does not mean it is "thriving" on said diet.

I would be interested to read papers from a peer reviewed Journal, not one published by pet food or pharmaceutical companies, to support your claim that the biochemistry of a domestic dog is so different from a wolf that its nutritional needs are too.
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Re: Re:

Postby El_EmDubya » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:48 pm

Odnarb wrote:
El_EmDubya wrote:(I must say that tarantula is delicious when roasted over an open fire.)



That horrifies me. What is the texture like?


SHRIMP, on the BBQ :mmm:
But the best were when the females had eggs...if you like fish roe...well...tarantula is MUCH better.
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Re: Re:

Postby 1lila1 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:33 pm

El_EmDubya wrote:
Odnarb wrote:
El_EmDubya wrote:(I must say that tarantula is delicious when roasted over an open fire.)



That horrifies me. What is the texture like?


SHRIMP, on the BBQ :mmm:
But the best were when the females had eggs...if you like fish roe...well...tarantula is MUCH better.


:eek: So how does one eat a spider? Do you get rid of the hairs and eat it whole or peel the exoskeleton and eat the inside??
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Re: Re:

Postby El_EmDubya » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:55 pm

1lila1 wrote: :eek: So how does one eat a spider? Do you get rid of the hairs and eat it whole or peel the exoskeleton and eat the inside??


Whole. Picture eating a whole shrimp, legs and all. Crunch, chrunch. Delicious.
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Re: "Dogs need by products"-Vet

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:43 pm

1lila1 wrote:IMO it does not. The domestic dog we know today evolved due to the incredible genetic diversity of wolves but just because an animal can survive long enough to reproduce on a given diet does not mean it is "thriving" on said diet.


You mean like wolves do? The ones that live long enough to make puppies and thats about it??? The ones with an average lifespan of 4-6 years... How NATURAL do you exactly want to be?
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Re: "Dogs need by products"-Vet

Postby 1lila1 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:53 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:
1lila1 wrote:IMO it does not. The domestic dog we know today evolved due to the incredible genetic diversity of wolves but just because an animal can survive long enough to reproduce on a given diet does not mean it is "thriving" on said diet.


You mean like wolves do? The ones that live long enough to make puppies and thats about it??? The ones with an average lifespan of 4-6 years... How NATURAL do you exactly want to be?


We both know the lifespan of a wild animal, wolves included, can not be chalked up solely to their diet.
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