Top 5 Foods

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Murfins
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Postby Murfins » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:29 pm

Could you list them again for us then Pat? :))

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Postby barbponys » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:16 pm

Your wish is my command:

At the top of my list with 4 stars is raw or BARF. It’s the most appropriate for dogs to eat, easiest for them to digest, and though there are inherent risks, the safest as well.

For dry foods the first at 3 stars would be Timberwolf:
With a very high percentage of meat based protein it is quite expensive. But since the dogs don’t eat as much of it, it really ends up being a good buy. They also, as a general rule, don’t develop a lot of the usual issues they deal with when lower quality foods are fed. Their lowest protein formula starts with 50% meat based protein, their highest has 90% meat based protein. The more meat protein the less grain they use. There is a wide variety of formulas and 3 are true allergy formulas since they don’t use any form of rice, corn, wheat, or soy.

Number two with 2 1/2 stars would be Nature’s Variety:
They use a standard kibble but when it’s cooled from the extrusion process they coat it in dehydrated raw food. They call this “Bio-coating”. It ups the meat percentage quite a bit, though pound for pound it’s still less than the Timberwolf. They have recently added an allergy formula, Venison with pumpkin seed and sweet potato. The dogs do well with it.

Number 3 with 2 1/4 stars would be Merrick:
Merrick also coats the kibble in dehydrated meat. They have added freeze dried vegetables and chunks of dehydrated meat in with the kibble. It has an added component of making gravy when warm water is added with the kibble. It takes a couple of minutes for it to thicken up but the dogs love it.

Number 4 with 1 3/4 stars would be Wellness. The biggest thing with this food that made it stand out is it is baked. It crumbles very easily, and is suppose to be easily digested. They were one of the first to come out with an alternative allergy formula with something other than lamb and rice.

Number 5 with 1 1/2 stars would be Canidae:
This is a decent food, much better than a lot of the big names out there. My main complaint is that they use sunflower oil and, eventually, most dogs will have trouble with it. It’s a good middle of the road food for a lot of people coming off grocery store or big name foods. It shows them the benefits of feeding better quality.

The only thing I would add, and some don't agree with me, is a warning in the use of very high protein foods. Protein in the 40% level is way too high. Some call it "Adkins for dogs". If someone wants to feed a food with a "higher" protein than dry, go raw. Feeding a food with that much cooked protein will cause problems.

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Murfins
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Postby Murfins » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:07 pm

Thank you :bowdown:

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Postby maximusflys » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:23 pm

barbponys wrote:Your wish is my command:



The only thing I would add, and some don't agree with me, is a warning in the use of very high protein foods. Protein in the 40% level is way too high. Some call it "Adkins for dogs". If someone wants to feed a food with a "higher" protein than dry, go raw. Feeding a food with that much cooked protein will cause problems.



What experiences have you had with protein being that high in a kibble that you would not recommend it and what problems can occur from feeding cooked proteins that high?

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Postby barbponys » Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:34 pm

maximusflys wrote:
barbponys wrote:Your wish is my command:



The only thing I would add, and some don't agree with me, is a warning in the use of very high protein foods. Protein in the 40% level is way too high. Some call it "Adkins for dogs". If someone wants to feed a food with a "higher" protein than dry, go raw. Feeding a food with that much cooked protein will cause problems.



What experiences have you had with protein being that high in a kibble that you would not recommend it and what problems can occur from feeding cooked proteins that high?


I know you are one who doesn't think there's a problem with high protein kibble, however, the fact remains that it DOES cause problems for SOME dogs. The store I used to work at carries high protein kibbles, dogs have had issues. Skin issues, coat issues, weight issues. No kibble is perfect. To say it's all "wives tales" isn't any more honest than saying there's nothing wrong with feeding ethoxiquin or the only reason beet pulp is used is as a "prebiotic". I don't support the use of high protein kibbles, if you are going to feed something like that, just feed freakin' raw. It's heathier.

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Postby concreterose » Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:20 pm

My vet, who is a huge advocate or raw feeding and high quality kibble, pulled ALL high protein, grainless kibbles from his shelves a few months ago. He had too many clients (including his own) whose pets developed numerous issues while on these kibbles for an extended period of time (most were on them sixth months or more). He services a lot of pet and working animals, and across the board, he felt that there were more negative reports than positive about feeding them. He did say that there were some animals that did fine on these high protein kibble diets, but there were more that didn't.

imperiumx1st

Postby imperiumx1st » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:03 am

i wish i can afford timber wolf 8( :sad:

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Postby barbponys » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:12 am

imperiumx1st wrote:i wish i can afford timber wolf 8( :sad:


The best part of research and educating your self is finding something that you can afford that will do right by your dog. When we first started in dogs we could barely afford Nutro. We used to feed Pedigree, and Nutro was a HUGE jump in price. Money was a huge issue for us but we made it work. There's no way we could have afforded the price of Twolf, we have been able to upgrade in stages...

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Postby PopeyeSaysHowdy » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:04 pm

Barb -

Thanks in advance for reading this and for your help. A few questions about your top 5 foods list.

- Where does Orijen fall in this, and why not in the top 5?
- How does the fact that most of Nature's Variety food comes from "meal" vs. whole meats effect your rating of it, if at all?
- Why does Wellness rate lower than Nature's Variety or Merrick?
- Where would you rate the new Wellness Core?

I ask b/c food is such a confusing issue. I used to feed raw and after one year decided it does just take too much time to deal with. I get exceptionally anal about it, so I'd rather give my dogs a great kibble and save my sanity and time for the extra 0.5% - 1% of health.

I've fed Wellness, Timberwolf, Orijen, Chicken Soup, Nature's Variety (raw medallions, dehydrated medallions and Natural Instinct kibble).

Ideally I'd love to find a food that is 40/40/20 protien/carbs/fat (inclusive of the fish oil they get), but that seems difficult.

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Timberwolf not working so well

Postby BaiLeY BLue » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:45 am

I am about 75% through a bag of Wild and Natural Timberwolf Organics...

I have noticed a steady decline in the brilliance that Bailey used to have to his coat, and no matter if I follow the food amounts on the bag or increase it, he always seems starving. He is shedding more than he ever has as well.

I have started adding an egg in the morning and flax oil in the evening...

I was feeding BilJac with great results...what gives?

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Re: Timberwolf not working so well

Postby PopeyeSaysHowdy » Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:22 pm

BaiLeY BLue wrote:I have started adding an egg in the morning and flax oil in the evening...


I can't comment on anything other than this one sentence, but I would switch from flax oil to fish oil. Why? Flax oils is ALA and fish oil is EPA and DHA. ALA converts to EPA and DHA in the body, but it is not nearly as efficient as just injesting the EPA and DHA in the form of fish oil. In otherwords, you cut out the middle man and go straight to the source.

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Re: Timberwolf not working so well

Postby BaiLeY BLue » Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:31 pm

PopeyeSaysHowdy wrote:
BaiLeY BLue wrote:I have started adding an egg in the morning and flax oil in the evening...


I can't comment on anything other than this one sentence, but I would switch from flax oil to fish oil. Why? Flax oils is ALA and fish oil is EPA and DHA. ALA converts to EPA and DHA in the body, but it is not nearly as efficient as just injesting the EPA and DHA in the form of fish oil. In otherwords, you cut out the middle man and go straight to the source.

I just happened to have flax oil on hand :thumbsup: free is always good!

Anyone on the other issues? And I read the ingredients, there are some fillers, but they are whole grain brown rice I believe, I don't have the bag in front of me.

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Re: Timberwolf not working so well

Postby barbponys » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:39 pm

BaiLeY BLue wrote:
PopeyeSaysHowdy wrote:
BaiLeY BLue wrote:I have started adding an egg in the morning and flax oil in the evening...


I can't comment on anything other than this one sentence, but I would switch from flax oil to fish oil. Why? Flax oils is ALA and fish oil is EPA and DHA. ALA converts to EPA and DHA in the body, but it is not nearly as efficient as just injesting the EPA and DHA in the form of fish oil. In otherwords, you cut out the middle man and go straight to the source.

I just happened to have flax oil on hand :thumbsup: free is always good!

Anyone on the other issues? And I read the ingredients, there are some fillers, but they are whole grain brown rice I believe, I don't have the bag in front of me.


All dry foods have fillers, that's what binds them together. You can't have a dry food without them. It's the percentage that makes the difference.
As to why your dog isn't doing well on the W&N... it's not the formula for him. Even if Twolf doesn't work for him, and it doesn't for some dogs, it's still better quality than the Biljak. That's part of the hunt, finding the best food for this particular dog.

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Postby barbponys » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:57 pm

PopeyeSaysHowdy wrote:Barb -

Thanks in advance for reading this and for your help. A few questions about your top 5 foods list.

- Where does Orijen fall in this, and why not in the top 5?
- How does the fact that most of Nature's Variety food comes from "meal" vs. whole meats effect your rating of it, if at all?
- Why does Wellness rate lower than Nature's Variety or Merrick?
- Where would you rate the new Wellness Core?

I ask b/c food is such a confusing issue. I used to feed raw and after one year decided it does just take too much time to deal with. I get exceptionally anal about it, so I'd rather give my dogs a great kibble and save my sanity and time for the extra 0.5% - 1% of health.

I've fed Wellness, Timberwolf, Orijen, Chicken Soup, Nature's Variety (raw medallions, dehydrated medallions and Natural Instinct kibble).

Ideally I'd love to find a food that is 40/40/20 protien/carbs/fat (inclusive of the fish oil they get), but that seems difficult.


I find the fresh to meal argument to be interesting. I find foods that list fresh meat more suspect than those that list meal. Fresh meat means lots of water, 70%. That's a lot of meat to use in a processed food. There's a lot of weight lost after cooking too. So, meal certainly isn't ideal but it's better than fresh, for true protein percentage any way.
As far as Orijen goes? I'm not impressed with it. If I don't support high protein foods, why would I support one that's 70%? I've bolded the ingredients that I don't agree with.

Deboned chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato[b/], lake whitefish, [b]chicken fat, sweet potato, whole eggs, turkey, salmon meal, salmon and anchovy oils, salmon, natural chicken flavour, sunflower oil, sun-cured alfalfa, dried brown kelp, carrots, spinach, peas, tomatoes, apples, psyllium, dulse, glucosamine Hcl, cranberries, black currants, rosemary extract, chondroitin sulfate, sea salt

Potato's may not be a grain, but boy do they act like one on a dogs system. Hard to diges, produce gas, and are most definitely a binder to hold the food together.

Cooked animal fat is very bad for our pets. It's hard on their system and is a direct cause of pancreatic issues.

Too many dogs react badly to sunflower oil. With the salmon and anchovy oils why add it? Flax would be a better choice for the omega 6's.

Why add psylium? It's a fiber source that seems out of place with all the fruits in the diet. I use it on my horses to bind with sand in their gut to prevent colic... not an ingredient I want to see in my dog food! 8l

I don't like to see salt in any form added to a food.

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Postby Timas Mom » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:06 pm

barbponys,

What then would you suggest for a dog allergic/intolerant to grains?

Potato is easier to digest than tapioca, and in my experience, if you're allergic to corn, wheat and oats, so goes the same for barley, quinoa, millet etc.

Tima is intolerant to:
sunflower,safflower and canola oil
dairy
poultry ( including eggs)
grains

Raw made her vomit...regularily....


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