Chicken Soup For The Puppy Lover's Soul

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.

Postby kbreese » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:46 pm

mnp13 wrote:
Here are a few articles for you:

k9joy.com/dogarticles/dogfood01grain.pdf

http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/riverien/nutrigrains.htm

http://www.metropets.org/Newsroom/wholefoods.htm

Michelle


Well judging by those links, theres NO good dry kibble, unless you know any that doesnt contain a significant amount of grain?

I mean lets say I buy the whole anti-grain thing, well how can some of you preach Wellness but criticize other foods like Chicken Soup..., and Nutro Natural Choice, when of the first 8 ingredients in Wellness, 5 of them are grains....someone please explain the logic b/c as far as I can see Wellness is just as grainy....
kbreese
 

Postby mnp13 » Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:00 pm

I can't answer you, as I feed Canadae. I would feed Kibbles-n-Bits if Ruby would eat it over another food. She is impossible to get intreested in food, so I'll go lower quality to at least get her to eat.

As for the meals, chicken / turkey / fish / whatever meal is a 'concentrated' form of protein. The meat/carcass is cooked down and ground to create protein meal. When the ingredients list 'whole chicken' or 'fresh chicken' then it is really farther down the ingredient list once it is cooked - that's the exact same in human food, btw.

Yes, even the BEST kibble is not as good as a raw or meat based diet. There is one food (I saw it in the natural food store) that is kibble that recommends you feed meat and use their kibble as a suppliment. No matter who makes it, kibble is not the best of foods. It's like TV dinners, you get what you need to stay alive, and some are better than others, but they are STILL TV dinners.

Michelle
mnp13
 

Postby barbponys » Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:55 pm

It's quite late, I've had a really long day, all I'm going to say on this subject for now is...................dogs and wolves are close enough to be identical............my dogs have gotten into UNcooked grains......horse grain and boy let me tell you, they DON'T digest it worth a poop Go ahead......feed your dog pure grain, WHY do you have to have SCIETIFIC research when you can SEE with your own eyes that they don't process it. A 40# bag of crimped oats will cost you about 15 bucks........good source of protein........shouldn't take more than a couple of cups and he'll be full. Ridiculous? Give it a try and tell us what you find in the morning......or do it for a week. That's what you want as scientific proof right? That's what they would do to the poor test subjects......why don't you? Then you will see first hand how they DON'T process grain.

I guess instinct matters not one bit. And all those stupid wild animals that are living how they were designed to live and eat deserve to go extinct cuz God knows MAN knows what's best for all. MONEY would have NOTHING to do with the way we feed our dogs now would it??? Multi-national corps. telling us, BRAINWASHING us, to believe that what THEY put in a bag is the only way a dog or cat could POSSIBLY get what they need to live.
I know I'm over reacting but God I get the feeling that you work for Nutro..............gremlin.
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Postby barbponys » Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:57 pm

Done.
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Postby kbreese » Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:13 am

First off your whole first paragraph doesnt make that much sense to me and seems to argue points not even relevant to points that I made. For example, where did I ever argue that dogs and wolves were not similar? And if you or I ate cupfulls of grain we would experience the same thing. Doesnt mean its not good for you, or none of it was processed. it actually cleans out your system.

No I don't work for Nutro, I work for Discgraphics in Hauppauge, NY. Feel free to email me at kbreese@discgraphics.com :)

But I'd still like an explanation how Wellness, and many other foods on your top 9 list are so superior to Nutro or Chicken Soup when they all appear to have just as much grain.

You argue so often and strongly against grains yet one of your most highly recommended feeds, Wellness, has 5 grains in its first 8 ingredients. If anyone works for any of the companies I would think it would be you as I just find a lot of inconsistencies and bias in many of your recommendations and criticisms. The grain thing is one of them.

Here's an excerpt from your often recommended Wellness feed:

Since Wellness products are made with whole grains, they contain a lot of natural fiber, which is good for digestion. Insoluble fiber is not digested, but excreted. It also absorbs excess water, hence the volume of stool is large. It is good for the dog, as it keeps all toxins out of the body.

All of the dry products contain whole grains; barley, oats, flaxseed and brown rice. They are not refined and the nutrients are not taken out of the grains. This fiber provides a normal healthy stool.

I am not biased towards any of them. Whichever is the best, thats what I will feed. I just havent found any real reason to agree with your criticism's of certain of certain foods like Nutro. Over the years I have seen tons of case studies and reviews of people who use Nutro Natural and almost all were very positive. The only real complaint I ever see is if people dogs won't eat it. Everyone, including myself seems to have great results. Healthy energetic dogs with shiny soft coats.

On the other hand just in the past week I have read a few negative reviews about Wellness causing lots of stools and large stools, upset stomachs and even very high ph in the urine risking kidney stones.

I am more than willing to switch to any dry kibble, I just can't seem to be sold on anything yet, and it does get frustrating everytime I think I decided and than hear negative things, especially when some of the negatives seem unjustified relative to other kibble
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Postby barbponys » Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:35 am

My first paragraph was in response to your statement that wild animals don't necessarily eat what is best for them, they just eat what is available. They don't know what they need for proper nutrition........but MAN knows exactly what they need. Hence my response. There is an article in an American Veterinary Assc. publication that states that they have made a mistake in recommending the feeding of grain to cats. It has contributed to most of the issues they have been dealing with the past 20 years. Hmmmm, so much for man knowing what's best for a carnivore. And since dogs are carnivores don't you think that applies to them too??

As far as my rating for dog food, I've worked in the industry for a loooooooong time. I've seen what foods do and don't do, the medical issues and on and on.

Another thing that drives me crazy about dry foods is since soooo many people are half educated and since it looks good companies put chicken, or turkey on their label when in fact they use meal. Honest? No, the truth? Yes. I know for a fact that Timberwolf uses no fresh meat in their product but it says they do on their package. He's considering putting some fresh meat in the formulas in the future........why I don't know. I don't understand.............nothing new there.

Wellness has been going down hill of late. When I say that I mean within the last few months, 6 or so. It's not a good idea to make snap judgements since ALL foods can have bad batches. When you are talking about a company that makes TONS of food in one batch you can't assume it's a reduction in quality. It's beginning to look like that is the case though. Having said that.......... I still recommend Timberwolf first and foremost. It's the best, period. I don't like dry food, if I had my way my dogs wouldn't eat dry but I don't have the financial base to feed straight raw. If I could I would. 3 dogs and a cat eat a LOT of meat. I will get to the point where we can cut out dry all together.........at some point. I have said, more than once, why I support Timberwolf and you might want to read some of my posts. You might also call Mark and talk to him............if you can get him to answer his phone. ALL dry food is bad.........no matter how good it is it's still bad for the dogs. If you have one dog I would feed BARF..........it's easy and the dogs thrive on it. If you find the whole idea ludicrous, fine. I'm done with this discussion. You don't agree with my opinion so lets leave it at that shall we?
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Postby blover27 » Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:39 am

:goodpost: nice barbponys...nice :clap
wellness has really gone down hill that much that fast? that sucks :po:
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Postby kbreese » Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:21 am

Pat,

thanks for the response. IMO, theres nothing wrong with disagreements and debates. I never claim to know everything nor have I ever stated I know for a fact that what I am saying here is true. I am just stating opinions based on what I have read, experienced and basic judgement. My goal here is to find the best food thats all.

Regarding the diet in the wild debate, although man makes mistakes, we are still a lot more intelligent than a wolf and you can't conclude if a particular food product is or isnt eaten in the wild that it's the best and/or only way. You can't tell me that there are no foods that are good for a wolf that he doesn't eat in the wild, and at the same time you can't tell me that he doesnt eat anything in the wild that may not be very good for him. So my point is simply that the in wild argument, in and of itself, is no way to completely dismiss any particular food. So for arguments sake, maybe grains aren't the best thing for them, but I would never conclude that simply b/c they don't eat it in the wild.

Regarding the dry foods, thats fine if you say no dry foods are very good. I just never understood how you'd talk about certain foods being bad b/c of all the grain and than go ahead recommending other foods instead, which are just as grainy. Ok, so maybe Wellness had some bad batches but thats independent of their ingredient list...wasn't sure what your point was there relevant to what I was saying.

Moving on....its pretty obvious that whole natural foods BASED on what they eat in the wild would be the best diet. I thought the "TV Dinner" analogy was a good one and really puts it into perspective. No once can argue that processed and preserved food is better than fresh whole foods. So yes I will definitely be looking into the BARF diet, but I have some major concerns about bacteria and possible diseases w/raw meat that I need to look into. From what I understand its a pretty hotly debated topic (go figure! lol ). I actually wonder if all the anti-BARFsentiment is driven by the industry if ya know what I mean...

Kevin
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