OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

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Misskiwi67
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:56 pm

Sorry Kadillacgirl for not seeing your post sooner... but its my personal belief that the increased risk is due to the length of the procedure and the immature cardiovascular system... especially after recent events. I suppose it would take some real research to confirm, but these are my anecdotal beliefs based on two seperate arrest events.

The reason I returned to this thread is to report that we lost a pup during an ear crop yesterday. The entire clinic has been in shock, it was a 10 week old great dane, so a rather large pup in the grand scheme of things, nearly 20 lbs. The anesthesia went very well, heart rate maintained over 120 the entire procedure (cardiac output is totally dependent on heart rate in young animals), oxygenation excellent. One ear was just a couple millimeters wider than the other, so with Doc being such a perfectionist, he went back and spent an additional 15 minutes to attain perfection. I don't know if this was a potential show pup or not, but even so, nothing less than perfection is acceptable, its all about cosmetics after all. Again, all was well... until AFTER gas anesthesia had been turned off (but not the oxygen), and the pup was still being fully monitored by the head technician while Doc cleaned up, the pup went into cardiac arrest... literally beep, beep, nothing...

CPR was performed, even during CPR excellent oxygenation was maintained, the pup was even breathing without assistance. Sadly, the heart never beat on its own again, and an ECG revealed ventricular tachycardia... every rescue drug was tried, all the pain medications were reversed... but nothing could be done to revive the puppy.

We've had probably 20 successful ear crops since I started at this clinic (my previous clinic did not do them), one pup turned blue but was saved, and another died. Ear cropping is a dying art, one I once thought I'd like to learn so home-crops could be prevented, but no way will I ever learn to perform this procedure. I get sick to my stomach seeing them on the surgery schedule, its an incredibly bloody, painful procedure. For example, its the only procedure other than bone repairs that requires the regular use of morphine for our pain control protocols. Its my sincere hope that over time the old Docs still performing the procedure will retire and eventually it will be nearly impossible to get a dogs ears cropped.

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Sarah
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Sarah » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:30 pm

I worked at a practice with a vet who did quite a lot of crops. I don't believe we lost a pup during the time I worked there (5 years), but we did come very close with one Boxer puppy. They were able to revive her, but it would have been horrible to lose her for a cosmetic procedure.

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby KadillacGrrl » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:38 pm

Misskiwi, thanks for sharing. That's awful, made me upset and sad for everyone involved.

I've always been surprised when people crop 8-10 week old pups. I have done all of mine at 12, one at 13, and one at 16 weeks. The 12 week old pups were 19, 22 and 23 lbs.

Ugh. That sucks.

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Misskiwi67
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:49 pm

I really do hope its just been a run of bad luck, we've researched our protocols and can't come up for any good reason for this absolutely horrific loss...

As always, this is just one persons experiences, and my very personal interpretation of those events... doesn't mean what I've seen is the way the world works.

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Sarah
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Sarah » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:59 pm

The vet I worked for preferred 8-10 weeks for cropping. But bear in mind that he did way more Boxers than anything. With the longer crops, like Boxers, Dobes, Danes... the longer you wait, the harder it is to get the ears to stand. A short crop like an APBT/AST or a Schnauzer you could do at almost any age.

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Siren » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:32 pm

I'm gonna throw my theory on the table. Its a theory that started back when I worked at the humane society. I'd watch the dogs outside, interacting and playing. And I noticed, we had more trouble with the dogs who had cropped ears and docked tails then dogs who didn't. Not saying they were more aggressive, just saying, they got into more fights...and this is my theory why...

In nature, wolves have large ears and long tails. Ears and tails are highly important when used to communicate how a wolf is feeling. Depending on the angle the tail is held and speed in which it wags it can mean everything from "let's play" to "i'm really scared", to "I'm tough!" Ears send the same signals.

Puts ears, tail, facial expression and body signals all together....one wolf tells another world in their own clear language how they feel. This keeps the alpha at the top and everyone else below. Life is good.

Dogs are no different right? Sure some have floppy ears, but they are still there and they do what they are suppose to do. Communicate how a dog is feeling clearly.

But take a dog with cropped ears and/or docked tail, its like, taking a human's ability to make facial expressions away. So when a guy makes a joke with a straight face, you aren't sure if it was a joke or they were serious.

I would think the same could be said with dogs. That other dogs are getting mixed signals from a dog with altered tail and ears. This could make the other dog more defensive or even offensive. If a fight ensues, someone's gotta win. And being its generally the dogs labeled "dangerous breeds" who are most prevalent in getting cropping and docking, its going to look like, they are more aggressive. And maybe that rotti or pit bull didn't start the fight, but they are sure likely to finish it. When they were probably only defending themselves from a dog, who misunderstood them.

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby maximusflys » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:07 am

My dog never has nor will ever play with or need to communicate with other dogs. That goes for my future dogs as well of any breed . My dog communicates with me fine with cropped ears and we have never gotten into a fight.

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Siren » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:40 pm

My point isn't your dogs or my dogs. I don't take my dogs out to play with other dogs. With the 3 of them, they have all the companionship and pack they need. When I take my daughter to the park, I see pit bulls and other breeds that tend to be dog aggressive in the dog park. I am talking about those people. Who are setting their dogs up for a fall, and believe cropping and docking are a contributor to the fight. Mind you, not saying it CAUSES it, it is simply a contributing factor to an already bad situation.

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby murray_215 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:36 pm

I have a min pin that didn't get cropped. The vet said similar to what your other post said. They said she was the nicest one they met. They said all the cropped ones were more aggressive. I get what you are saying about body language. Perked up ears, and tail mean dominance, and it they just are that way another dog may think it is being aggressive, and start a fight.

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Siren » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:36 pm

Glad I am not the only one with the theory.

I'm not even saying dogs WITH cropped ears/tail become more aggressive, just, that's how other dogs perceive them. And a few bad experiences, where the cropped dog has no idea why another dog is being a jerk, could then make that dog aggressive.

It can be a vicious cycle.

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby teddy » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:35 am

u-turn wrote:
KadillacGrrl wrote:Hmm I better tell Betty and Kitty they look atrocious and thuggish.

Image
Image


very nice crops KadillacGrrl. If i could find a Vet here type of skill, i would crop. :thumbsup:


+1 I love the crop you did...very clean,

I could go for a crop or no crop on pits to the rest of you all...I think it's personal choice...Kadi did an awesome job on those crops, and there still very beautiful...

I was going to crop my noah, but i couldn't find a legit cropper with in my area to do it so i choice not to do it...but would i have found somebody well known for cropping and trusting and good at it i would have done it...

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby OldSchoolAPBT » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:41 pm

I think cropping and docking is fine its your dog your paying for it no one has to right to say not to do it if i had the extra cash i would have cropped my dogs ears

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby mommy2kane » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:04 am

maximusflys wrote:My dog never has nor will ever play with or need to communicate with other dogs. That goes for my future dogs as well of any breed . My dog communicates with me fine with cropped ears and we have never gotten into a fight.


This just made me laugh out loud! lol

I don't truly care one way or another -- my "personal" opinion is that I prefer natural ears and all my dogs *have* natural ears. However, to each it's own! I'll appreciate a nicely done crop (on someone else's dog).

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:20 pm

doglove wrote:I view ear cropping and tail docking about the same as circumcision on infant males, ear piercings of toddlers that can't say no, and elective plastic surgery to 'improve looks' when adults think they need to conform to some kind of beauty standard.

It's wrong, it's barbaric, and it kind of makes me sick to my stomach.

I fully understand that some dogs work in environments where their ears may be torn, and I'd much rather the dog suffer after it's ears are cut off as a puppy instead of being in agony as an adult when a hog ripped his fully matured, cartilage ear almost completely off. I don't think it should be done for cosmetic purposes.


+1 :goodpost:

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby sunny » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:53 pm

the thing to me is that dogs have the ability to communicate with their ears. by cropping ears you are loosing a great deal of your dogs expression.


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