OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.

Postby PitBullPride » Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:32 pm

I guess its all a matter of personal preferance. It's a common procedure in many breeds thats been around for so long...
PitBullPride
 

Postby mnp13 » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:49 am

duckzilla wrote:My train of logic is simply that ears are designed by nature to best suit the organism on which they reside. Evoloution has made mistakes, and granted so has the course of human interruption in a vast array of organisms on planet earth. This is quite clear, and one can see human involvement simply by looking at our beloved dogs... These aren't natures plan as they weren't naturally occurring, but had involvement by humans. However, nature still has a control over how each part of the organism functions to facilitate life. This is found in the DNA. And as I've said earlier we simply don't have time to go over all of this in a post.


Your logic here is flawed. Human ears are basically the same shape overall. Some are larger and some are smaller but over all you have the same basic configuration - and same basic functionality.

Not so with dogs. A Basset Hound, Standard Poodle, German Shepherd, Pomeranian and a Grey Hound have VASTLY different ears. According to your reasoning some should have very bad hearing problems. What about Rod, who has natural full prick ears in contrast to Elijah who has full drop? According to what you posted, one of those two dogs should have SERIOUS hearing problems.

You will notice that most of the wild canines have full prick ears - wolves, Basenji, Coy Dogs, Coyote, Heyenas, Dingos, etc. So if we take human selective breeding out of the equasion then you DO have 'nature's plan' - and nature's plan is full prick ears. I don't have to read articles to figure this out, if wild dogs had defective hearing they'd have died out long ago.

Oh, and evolution doesn't 'make mistakes'. An evolutionary 'mistake' dies out and the strong 'non-mistakes' take their places.

Michelle
mnp13
 

Postby mnp13 » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:51 am

AllAmericanPUP wrote:cropping=hiding faults.

A lot of show people crop ears because their dogs don't have the "perfect pit ears" i.e. rose ears.
so all they are doing is hiding faults so their dogs will win ;)
no offense


Cropping = Breed Standards and human preference.

Michelle
mnp13
 

Postby mnp13 » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:03 am

duckzilla wrote:I was only trying to illustrate my point that science explains why ears are the way they are, for any organism... Yet, no one can provide a scientific explanation on why ears are cropped.
duckzilla wrote:My train of logic is simply that ears are designed by nature to best suit the organism on which they reside.


Right, I see where I used a comparison between humans and dogs... :huh?:


That's the POINT. There is no 'scientific' reason to crop ears. There is also no scientific reason NOT to. If the dog's ear was meant to do all the things you say then how exactly do you account for the HUGE difference in the shape of dog's ears? As it has been pointed out (numerous times) wild canines, by and large, have full prick ears - so using YOUR reasoning all dogs should have cropped ears because THAT is how nature intends them to be - nature doesn't make full drop ears.

Your 'train of logic' is derailed. When you have VASTLY different ear shapes in a species you can't point to ear shape and say some animals hear better than others due to that shape. The simple fact that wild animals don't have drop ears tells you exactly what shape of ear is 'natural'.

There are VERY few species that don't have upright ears. All equines, all wild felines, even most rodents have upright ears. The only natural species that I can think of that has full drop ears is the lop eared rabbit. Some domestic cats have curled up ears, but those are human inventions. Elephant's ears naturally lay back against their bodies, leaving the ear canal exposed. Reptiles that have ears just have ear drums on the sides of their head in little canals, nothing covering them at all.

Michelle
mnp13
 

Postby mnp13 » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:08 am

duckzilla wrote:However, based on the facts, you are arguing out of an effort to make your dog "ok" because his ears are cropped.


Just a small, insignifigant, teeny tiny detail...

Demo Dick owns Connor - Connor has beautiful, natural, rose prick ears.

So, what 'facts' are you talking about again?

Michelle
mnp13
 

Postby mnp13 » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:19 am

duckzilla wrote:I'm not trying to convince anyone that what they've done is wrong. I'm trying to hear one just one good reason why so many have cropped/docked extranneous body parts and flesh. So far all I've heard is personal attacks on my character."you don't know what you're talking about" without any rebuttal that I could put to a scientific explanation.


I think wild animals are an EXCELLENT 'scientific explaination' but you are choosing to ignore that; perhaps because wild animals by and large completley refute all of your claims?

Anyway...

Connor's tail was docked because it was sprung, the bone was exposed and the danger of severe infection was too great to not dock it. Sure we could have chosen to just take a few inches off, but why bother with that? If he had sprung his new, shorter, tail we would have had to start all over again with surgery, pain, healing... forget that. It's gone and done with and we're all happier for that.

Personally, I would be just as happy to never have a full tail in my home again. (And on a purly shallow note, my wine glasses are also happier.)

Cropping ears does not cause or prevent ear infections, does not cause or prevent hearing problems, does not cause or prevent anything but a good looking head on a dog. Sure, I think some crops are completely retarded looking (the 8 inch ears on some boxers and dobermans comes to mind), but if the owner likes them that way more power to them.

As for Ruby's ears, I wish she had them. Even more, I wish I had had the vet re-crop them when she was spayed. Oh well.

I think cropped ears can be stunning - Grant and Tyranny are excellent examples of STUNNING crop jobs that accentuate a beautiful head. Then you have bat wing crops like poor Ruby, beautiful head... stupid looking ears.

To each his own... but if you tell me my dog is ugly one more time I'm gonna start getting nasty.

Michelle
mnp13
 

Postby jmann4 » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:39 am

Duck, you want a valid reason for cropping and docking. There isn't one, you're searching for the impossible answer. I could give you MY valid reasons. Those are just my opinions and you may not find them valid. So, the endless debate between those of us who think cropping is not the most important issue the breed faces and those who think it's cruel or unnecessary.

Michelle? Five in a row? The ever elusive quintuplet post. :)
jmann4
 

Postby blover27 » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:47 am

Michelle? Five in a row? The ever elusive quintuplet post.

oh thats great roflmao
blover27
 

Postby JaquelineC » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:12 am

duckzilla wrote:the dogs lose all sense of outward emotion.


lol at Duckzilla!

Have you ever even seen (in person) a dog with properly cropped ears?

My Luna's ears (good crop job) are more expressive than my Deucer's perfect rose prick natural ears! I can tell exactly what she's thinking/feeling just by the position of her ears at any given moment.

I will say that a shoddy crop can affect the signals a dog is sending a bit, as Deegan's ears (done long before I got him) are not that great, and it's slightly harder to tell which direction they're going in if you don't know him. However, his crop doesn't seem to effect his communication with other dogs in the least.

I think he'd look like a 'person who is even slower than I with natural ears...

Great posts Michelle! :thumbsup:
JaquelineC
 

Postby PitBullPride » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:31 am

exactly it all realistically boils down to personal preferance! My males ears are natural, and my females are cropped. :dunno:
PitBullPride
 

Postby mnp13 » Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:57 am

jmann4 wrote:Michelle? Five in a row? The ever elusive quintuplet post. :)


What can I say, I respond as I read!

I don't read a thread all the way through and then go back and respond to different posts... that's too confusing for and I lose some of my 'edge' :))

I gotta respond in the heat of the moment - that's my trademark. If I don't do that, my famous rants will lose their genius-with-a-psychotic-edge undertones.

:thumbsup:

Michelle
mnp13
 

Postby duckzilla » Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:12 pm

I proved my point time and time again, and there are those of you who balk at fact. Very unfortunate. Michelle, you're over emotional, and it's perfectly clear you cannot and do not respond intellectually when you're upset. :thumbsup: I never called anyones dog ugly. I said I THINK it is ugly. I never associated any of you as negative people. I just asked a question. I provide scientific, objective approaches to my question and in return receive emotional responses such as you've all so ineffectually retorted. I tried to stay objective, at this point you people are threatening me... for what? What could you possilby be trying to prove?? Is this how you treat everyone with conflicting opinions. I back my opinions up with fact, well stated and objective, you respond with harsh sentiment and fallacious statements with no furtive glance into who I am, what I do, or where I come from. You take your "tribal" knowledge. I'll have my science. I won't have to prove my point any further. You all have done it for me. You refuse to accept fact for your own imagination. Thats fine. Just don't sell your dogpiles here. I ain't buyin.

Good day. :cool:
duckzilla
 

Postby JaquelineC » Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:22 pm

Based on that response, Duckzilla, I'm wondering if you even took the time to read anyone's replies... :roll:
JaquelineC
 

Postby duckzilla » Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:39 pm

well, you know the saying.. "Wonders never cease".

Of course I've read them. What are you trying to imply? Why not ASK me? Why not confront me individually? Has that ever "wondered" up for ya? Probably not, as it is clear there are those of you who do not respect other peoples opinion in the event it conflicts with yours.

I can't take this ridiculous thread anymore. Those of you refusing to provide yourselves a little 'edumacation' are below my mental capacity and I refuse to carry on any further. I thought this was a debate... Instead its a "non ear cropper" bash party. I should have brought my own rope for you guys, hell, maybe even some matches and kerosene so you burn me while I hanged. And then Michelle could steal my dog to crop her ears and dock her tail. Too bad. Too bad.

So with that. :wallbang:
duckzilla
 

Postby JaquelineC » Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:41 pm

lol

You're funny...
JaquelineC
 

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