OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

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Luna_Redmoon
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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Luna_Redmoon » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:49 pm

i stated somewhere here earlier tht it doesnt bother me, but if i was to get it done it would be to a male. never on a female (too masculine to me). however, I do have a young pup with a retarded ear that just is not growing right. his right ear is a bit shorter than the left and it touches the left ear, completely. i have taped it to try and help it grow the right direction since first notice that it was going to be like that, however, the cartiledge just wont form to it. Because I would like to eventually do shows with him among other things, i plan to have a a cut in between a long crp and show crop done. it would be perfect for his larger head size and broad body. however, i originally was not planning on cutting his ears.
I have done some research on vets that do this and my local vet is not the best choice...at least not for bullies. Im travelling to Dr. Howard in cleveland who did my friend's doberman pups (and bitch when she was younger) and schnauzers. I love his work and he works with you on what would look best on the dog. Im bringing in two photos of cuts I like, one being of one of the dogs I already have who came cut to me. He says because of the way his right ear is forming, that he agrees cropping would be the best bet to help keep a deformity from getting worse. (its middle point and up just hasnt grown...). And already had evaluation, and he showed me some other cuts he has done (some with the same problem on other breeds) and they turned out great! Couldnt even tell.
Jace goes in in a week and a half. Im nervous because this would be the first time Ive taken in a puppy to get its ears cut. But Dr.Howard is a great vet and I trust him and his work.
He even did another friend of mine's Dogo after a random dog fight and half his ear was torn off. (poor guy...) He used to be sensitive....but now he loves his ears and face to be touched.
Im also excited to see how Jace turns out. He is already a very handsom boy minus the one ear lol. Im hoping this would help his constant scratching of the ear in the long run as well. Though I do believe he will have to wear a cone until healed...

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby TahsSunny » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:49 pm

Luna_Redmoon wrote:i stated somewhere here earlier tht it doesnt bother me, but if i was to get it done it would be to a male. never on a female (too masculine to me). however, I do have a young pup with a retarded ear that just is not growing right. his right ear is a bit shorter than the left and it touches the left ear, completely. i have taped it to try and help it grow the right direction since first notice that it was going to be like that, however, the cartiledge just wont form to it. Because I would like to eventually do shows with him among other things, i plan to have a a cut in between a long crp and show crop done. it would be perfect for his larger head size and broad body. however, i originally was not planning on cutting his ears.
I have done some research on vets that do this and my local vet is not the best choice...at least not for bullies. Im travelling to Dr. Howard in cleveland who did my friend's doberman pups (and bitch when she was younger) and schnauzers. I love his work and he works with you on what would look best on the dog. Im bringing in two photos of cuts I like, one being of one of the dogs I already have who came cut to me. He says because of the way his right ear is forming, that he agrees cropping would be the best bet to help keep a deformity from getting worse. (its middle point and up just hasnt grown...). And already had evaluation, and he showed me some other cuts he has done (some with the same problem on other breeds) and they turned out great! Couldnt even tell.
Jace goes in in a week and a half. Im nervous because this would be the first time Ive taken in a puppy to get its ears cut. But Dr.Howard is a great vet and I trust him and his work.
He even did another friend of mine's Dogo after a random dog fight and half his ear was torn off. (poor guy...) He used to be sensitive....but now he loves his ears and face to be touched.
Im also excited to see how Jace turns out. He is already a very handsom boy minus the one ear lol. Im hoping this would help his constant scratching of the ear in the long run as well. Though I do believe he will have to wear a cone until healed...


Please post photo's of the crop!. Also, good luck with the crop! Do you have a current photo of your pups ears now?.

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:50 am

I honestly will never dock my dogs tail or crop their ears. Mostly because it inhibits the ability to read Canine body language. The ears and tail are (to me) one of the most important things in Canine body language. I have seen dogs with good crop jobs, but its not for me.

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Shaggy0625 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:10 am

SnowKoi2010 wrote:I honestly will never dock my dogs tail or crop their ears. Mostly because it inhibits the ability to read Canine body language. The ears and tail are (to me) one of the most important things in Canine body language. I have seen dogs with good crop jobs, but its not for me.


I agree. I can always tell my dogs moods by their tail (which is a lethal weapon in 48 states and able to clear a coffee table in .5 seconds!!!) :headbang: :headbang:

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Luna_Redmoon » Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:49 am

TahsSunny wrote:
Please post photo's of the crop!. Also, good luck with the crop! Do you have a current photo of your pups ears now?.



Oh I will! Im so nervous/excited lol. And I currently dont have any recent photos on this computer. I will have to ask my fiance to upload some. :)

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:39 pm

Shaggy0625 wrote:
SnowKoi2010 wrote:I honestly will never dock my dogs tail or crop their ears. Mostly because it inhibits the ability to read Canine body language. The ears and tail are (to me) one of the most important things in Canine body language. I have seen dogs with good crop jobs, but its not for me.


I agree. I can always tell my dogs moods by their tail (which is a lethal weapon in 48 states and able to clear a coffee table in .5 seconds!!!) :headbang: :headbang:


xD So true. Though snows weapon is her feet. Lets just say that the guys return the help balling on the floor. Anyways, I'mg lad someone agrees with me! I mean there is no medical benefit from getting the dogs ears done, So I don't see the point.

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby buckaroo » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:13 pm

It is still easy to read body language on a dog with cropped ears and docked tail.

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:17 pm

I disagree a tiny bit.
In general, Obi seems less happy to me in general, simply because he has a bob-tail.

Whoever docked his tail (he is a boxer mix) left a tiny stub. You have to look really close to see it wag. In this respect, I find him MUCH harder to read than Buddy who has a long tail

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:13 am

On top of that, you can't see it when it is suppose to be alert or scared. Ears are another thing that, when unnaturally crafted to suit the owner wants, makes it hard to tell when they are relaxed or fearful. Even the best of crop jobs is hard to read canine body language.

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Celesteandthebullies » Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:21 am

With docked dogs it can be hard to read body language, however you can also read other parts of the body, and body positioning.

And personally, I've seen a lot of cropped dogs come through the shelter with cropped ears and never had an issue reading their body language. Besides the other parts of the body, if you pay close attention you can tell if the ears are forward or back. That's just my opinion and experience though.

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:42 am

Well I can't tell. and thats probably a good reason why I don't do my dogs ears or tail. Yes i know a stiff body with hairs raised could mean trouble, but a stiff body and ears raised and tail in the air means you better get your dog fast because it is trying to dominate another dog, which could cause a fight. And theres more to reading the ears than forward and back. Dogs with floppy ears can raise their ears or lower them depending on how they feel.

As said though, I am not against it. If thats what you wanna do thats fine. But I don't advise it either (and wont do it).


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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Luna_Redmoon » Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:24 pm

Ive seen dogs with cropped ears that can do all the same.

Lou Lou has naturally, uncut, stand up ears. She raises them, pins them, lowers them, has one up and the other down.
And Phe (Ophelia) is an adult full grown doberman who has been around Lou since she was 3 months old. She got her ears cropped and does her ears the same Lou can and can even move them more center to her head when she is alert and "on the prowl" lol.
Her tail is also docked, at the 3rd vertebrae from the base, and she communicates quite well with it. She raises it up, wiggles it, lowers it and has it tight against her butt when in trouble or something scares her, lays it off to the side when she is playful or feeling goofy. has it straight out when she doing something she isnt supposed to. (Her other dogs show the same language almost)

All my dogs that were around other dogs growing up, have a very extensive body language. Though dogs I have and have gotten in the past that werent around others since day one, seem to have more subtle body language. Bailey and Riley. Brother and sister, off spring from Lou. I kept Riley, Bailey went to another home for the first 2 and a half years of her life. Then later the owner could not keep her (moving to apartment with his grandmother who is allergic) and gave her back to me. She does not have the same language skills as Riley and the rest of the dogs. Her ears are more rosepetal like rileys. Its better than the complete unsocialized dogs, but not as extensive as the dogs around others their whole lives.

So all in all, I dont think its harder to read in general, I think it has more to do with the dog. Period. Because My grandmother has a schnauzer who wasnt around other dogs growing up, so he didnt learn the "normal" dog body language. His ears are for the most part forward, back, pinned. and his tail is either straight, tucked, or wiggling. its just the basic what comes natural. BUT. Also you should know this. His tail is docked, yes. But his ears are not cut. Not been taped. Just natural partial stand up ears almost like Lou but his tips bend over.
She has had this dog for 6 years and got him when he was 3 weeks old and bottlefeeding.


So, my opinion, it just depends on the dog.

Jace is getting his ears cut too to fix this deformity with his right ear. He is 16 weeks, I have had him since 3. He has been around other dogs and shows great language with them. I am confident after his cropping he will continue to do the same.

(also, little update on him, vet has decided because of the broken cartiledge and how the middle of his ear is where growth stops, a Show cut would be best for him.)

so basically like this Image

but a little more of this bell so like this but a tad longer
Image

sorry for the large pic, i got it from google and idk how to size it down without downloading it O.o

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:29 pm

The ears look the same to me. But the second picture the dog is clearly not as relaxed or alert as the first dog, you can see it in his face. I'm still not for it. It does make it hard to read canine body language. I'm sorry I haven't seen proof other wise.

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Re: OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

Postby Celesteandthebullies » Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:33 pm

That dog doesn't look unrelaxed. One sign of being stressed would be the ears positioned back.

Signs of confidence: erect stance (standing tall), tail up, tail wagging in a slower sweep, ears pricked up or relaxed, direct look; relaxed, smaller pupils.


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