OFFICIAL ear cropping/tail docking debate thread

[buckaroo]

It is still easy to read body language on a dog with cropped ears and docked tail.

[AllisonPibbleLvr]

I disagree a tiny bit.
In general, Obi seems less happy to me in general, simply because he has a bob-tail.

Whoever docked his tail (he is a boxer mix) left a tiny stub. You have to look really close to see it wag. In this respect, I find him MUCH harder to read than Buddy who has a long tail

[SnowKoi2010]

On top of that, you can't see it when it is suppose to be alert or scared. Ears are another thing that, when unnaturally crafted to suit the owner wants, makes it hard to tell when they are relaxed or fearful. Even the best of crop jobs is hard to read canine body language.

[Celesteandthebullies]

With docked dogs it can be hard to read body language, however you can also read other parts of the body, and body positioning.

And personally, I've seen a lot of cropped dogs come through the shelter with cropped ears and never had an issue reading their body language. Besides the other parts of the body, if you pay close attention you can tell if the ears are forward or back. That's just my opinion and experience though.

[SnowKoi2010]

Well I can't tell. and thats probably a good reason why I don't do my dogs ears or tail. Yes i know a stiff body with hairs raised could mean trouble, but a stiff body and ears raised and tail in the air means you better get your dog fast because it is trying to dominate another dog, which could cause a fight. And theres more to reading the ears than forward and back. Dogs with floppy ears can raise their ears or lower them depending on how they feel.

As said though, I am not against it. If thats what you wanna do thats fine. But I don't advise it either (and wont do it).

[Celesteandthebullies]

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/park/bodylanguage.aspx

[Luna_Redmoon]

Ive seen dogs with cropped ears that can do all the same.

Lou Lou has naturally, uncut, stand up ears. She raises them, pins them, lowers them, has one up and the other down.
And Phe (Ophelia) is an adult full grown doberman who has been around Lou since she was 3 months old. She got her ears cropped and does her ears the same Lou can and can even move them more center to her head when she is alert and "on the prowl" .
Her tail is also docked, at the 3rd vertebrae from the base, and she communicates quite well with it. She raises it up, wiggles it, lowers it and has it tight against her butt when in trouble or something scares her, lays it off to the side when she is playful or feeling goofy. has it straight out when she doing something she isnt supposed to. (Her other dogs show the same language almost)

All my dogs that were around other dogs growing up, have a very extensive body language. Though dogs I have and have gotten in the past that werent around others since day one, seem to have more subtle body language. Bailey and Riley. Brother and sister, off spring from Lou. I kept Riley, Bailey went to another home for the first 2 and a half years of her life. Then later the owner could not keep her (moving to apartment with his grandmother who is allergic) and gave her back to me. She does not have the same language skills as Riley and the rest of the dogs. Her ears are more rosepetal like rileys. Its better than the complete unsocialized dogs, but not as extensive as the dogs around others their whole lives.

So all in all, I dont think its harder to read in general, I think it has more to do with the dog. Period. Because My grandmother has a schnauzer who wasnt around other dogs growing up, so he didnt learn the "normal" dog body language. His ears are for the most part forward, back, pinned. and his tail is either straight, tucked, or wiggling. its just the basic what comes natural. BUT. Also you should know this. His tail is docked, yes. But his ears are not cut. Not been taped. Just natural partial stand up ears almost like Lou but his tips bend over.
She has had this dog for 6 years and got him when he was 3 weeks old and bottlefeeding.


So, my opinion, it just depends on the dog.

Jace is getting his ears cut too to fix this deformity with his right ear. He is 16 weeks, I have had him since 3. He has been around other dogs and shows great language with them. I am confident after his cropping he will continue to do the same.

(also, little update on him, vet has decided because of the broken cartiledge and how the middle of his ear is where growth stops, a Show cut would be best for him.)

so basically like this

but a little more of this bell so like this but a tad longer


sorry for the large pic, i got it from google and idk how to size it down without downloading it O.o

[SnowKoi2010]

The ears look the same to me. But the second picture the dog is clearly not as relaxed or alert as the first dog, you can see it in his face. I'm still not for it. It does make it hard to read canine body language. I'm sorry I haven't seen proof other wise.

[Celesteandthebullies]

That dog doesn't look unrelaxed. One sign of being stressed would be the ears positioned back.

Signs of confidence: erect stance (standing tall), tail up, tail wagging in a slower sweep, ears pricked up or relaxed, direct look; relaxed, smaller pupils.

[Luna_Redmoon]

I know its totally off topic, but Celeste, what type of dog is that in your avie? Its gorgeous!

[Eclipse]

It does make it hard to read canine body language. I'm sorry I haven't seen proof other wise.

no offense but, the only way this would be true is if the person looking doesnt have the experience and knowledge to understand what they are looking at.

[Celesteandthebullies]

I know its totally off topic, but Celeste, what type of dog is that in your avie? Its gorgeous!

Haha thank you, that's my boy Dakota. He's a German Shepherd/Labrador Retriever mix.

[Luna_Redmoon]

Haha thank you, that's my boy Dakota. He's a German Shepherd/Labrador Retriever mix.

Seems since my Dakota passed away a few years ago that name I see everywhere now! .
I had a wolf/pitbull mix. He was the runt but ended up being the largest and the biggest "lap dog" ever. I had him since I was 4 and he lived to be 12. His health started going downhill real bad in the end. And it was a few days after I had found Lou Lou (the fat cow I always mention ) when he finally let go. So in a way, I feel she is my gift from him. He had simular markings to your Dakota. only the black was a silver like grey. But had the lightest tan on his muzzle that faded to white.

I have never seen a combo like that make that unique type of markings. Nontheless, BEAUTIFUL!
Would make a great greeting card picture . I love the light tan and the white. just so unique I think. <3

[SnowKoi2010]

It does make it hard to read canine body language. I'm sorry I haven't seen proof other wise.

no offense but, the only way this would be true is if the person looking doesnt have the experience and knowledge to understand what they are looking at.

This is completely untrue. I know a good bit about Canine body language, and it takes more than a stiff body and raised hairs to tell what the dog is going trough. When the ears are cropped, especially the crop job that looks like little nubs of the ear is left, you cannot read the dogs ear signals. The ears are also unnaturally positioned upwards, and that is how they stay because of how the cartilage heals.

[haircrazie016]

It does make it hard to read canine body language. I'm sorry I haven't seen proof other wise.

no offense but, the only way this would be true is if the person looking doesnt have the experience and knowledge to understand what they are looking at.

This is completely untrue. I know a good bit about Canine body language, and it takes more than a stiff body and raised hairs to tell what the dog is going trough. When the ears are cropped, especially the crop job that looks like little nubs of the ear is left, you cannot read the dogs ear signals. The ears are also unnaturally positioned upwards, and that is how they stay because of how the cartilage heals.

This post is proof you clearly dont have experience working with or reading dogs that are cropped and/or docked. One of our dogs has a show crop, the other has nubs for ears, and I can without question read their body language, and facial expressions with ease. Couda and Piggie move their ears the same way every other dog does, they can pin them back, prick them up, leave them relaxed, etc etc. Just because they are shaped differently, doesnt mean they don't do the same things. This also applies to docked tails.

p.s. there is nothing unnatural about ears standing up, there are numerous breeds whos natural ears stand straight up by standard, and there are plenty of dogs including pit bulls whos natural ears stand straight up by default.