Does feeding raw turn a dog, or the kill?

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SyrisIsABully
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Does feeding raw turn a dog, or the kill?

Postby SyrisIsABully » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:13 pm

Do you all think it's true the kill makes them vicious? I am someone who has fed my dogs a raw diet, which many people do not agree with. Some think the blood turns a dog, others say feeding them dead animals isn't the same, it's the kill that turns them. I'm not sayin I agree with either theories, just wondering what you all think of that.

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rednoseErnie
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Postby rednoseErnie » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:21 pm

What do you mean by "turn them"?

My dog has never been fed a raw diet OR whole animals, and he tries to kill small animals all the time. I believe that prey drive is hardwired, and isn't affected by food source.

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SyrisIsABully
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Postby SyrisIsABully » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:25 pm

turn them; make them rabid, vicious baby-eaters, you know, turn them wild. Ok it sounds REALLY dumb to say it but...

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Postby Siberian » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:29 pm

sort of like "now he tasted blood" stuff?

No, that's a myth.

Marilyn

Postby Marilyn » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:37 pm

Bad breeding, abuse, poor socialization, etc. these are the things that "turn" dogs. I don't think any particular food would cause a problem with behavior.

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Postby barbponys » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:22 am

If feeding raw turned dogs I would be dead. All of my dogs, fosters and personal, are fed raw. My 10 yr old has been fed it since she was 9 weeks.

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Postby PopeyeSaysHowdy » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:34 am

SyrisIsABully wrote: Ok it sounds REALLY dumb to say it but...


Perhaps that's a clue.

Amhailte

Postby Amhailte » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:35 am

Do you all think it's true the kill makes them vicious? I am someone who has fed my dogs a raw diet, which many people do not agree with. Some think the blood turns a dog, others say feeding them dead animals isn't the same, it's the kill that turns them.


The following is just speaking from my own experience, so sorry if noone likes it.

But IMO, having experience in killing small animals can make a dog more likely to kill small animals again in the future. It's a drive satisfaction thing. The dog learns from experience that killing small animals is extremely satisfying, and wants to do it again. So in that way, killing can make a dog more 'vicious', although only towards small animals.

Let me repeat, that increase in prey drive after hunting doesn't translate to increased aggression towards people. Sane, well socialised dogs understand that people aren't prey. Even dogs that are intensely driven to chase and kill small animals are normally quite safe around people.

And eating raw meat doesn't make a dog more 'vicious' towards any kind of animal. Think about it - if you give a dog a piece of raw meat, he doesn't know if it comes from a cow or a sheep or whatever! If he didn't catch it himself, he doesn't know where it's from. It's all just food to him. So feeding raw is not going to make him more aggressive to people, dogs or small animals.

JMO, hope it made some sense.

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Postby IamaDick » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:50 am

i agree with you amhailte. Sorry i know i just chopped your name up, but ive been typing for awhile now and im getting tired. I agree with the drive satisfaction thing. If a dog kills something he enjoys it, so yes, he will probably try and do the same thing, kill other small animals. This doesnt mean he will attack dogs or humans, but smaller animals im sure, any dog just about will go after a squirrel. However, to answer the OP question, i think that is just another media myth. If so my dog would have killed me in my sleep, since he sleeps in my bed with me, and he is fed half raw. It doesnt matter where they get the food, as long as they are fed. But i still agree with them enjoying killing small animals, they enjoy the "rush" so to speak.

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Postby Pipbull » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:28 am

But isn't it the same as far as DA, with the whole drive satisfaction thing? I read somewhere that if a dog is in a fight, it can become addicted to the rush because it releases a chemical in the brain, along with the adrenaline. I can't remember where it was or even if was a reliable source, though. But I believe that my DA dog enjoys being DA, and the DA didn't start until he was attacked by another dog. But he was just around one year old, so it could have been that it just manifested itself around that maturing time, but who knows? :dunno:

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Postby IamaDick » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:38 am

Pipbull wrote:But isn't it the same as far as DA, with the whole drive satisfaction thing? I read somewhere that if a dog is in a fight, it can become addicted to the rush because it releases a chemical in the brain, along with the adrenaline. I can't remember where it was or even if was a reliable source, though. But I believe that my DA dog enjoys being DA, and the DA didn't start until he was attacked by another dog. But he was just around one year old, so it could have been that it just manifested itself around that maturing time, but who knows? :dunno:


Yes, i believe this is true, it makes sense to me, if you think about people that enjoy fighting, they get an adrenaline rush, its not much unlike a dog. As well as people that get addicted to parachuting and such things, they also get addicted to the adrenaline. So i think its more then plausable. Although i have met some one that has given me a way to deal with DA, and to actually change the chemicals in the brain. Instead of getting addicted to the adreanaline, instead they release seratonin which calms them. Something like that may help you, if you want more info, or to contact this person, just PM me and im sure she can give you more info. :thumbsup:

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Postby barbponys » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:30 am

Animal aggression isn't unexpected in these guys. My 15 month old is dominant and quite aggressive toward other dogs not in her pack at this point. I had a foster that would kill anything that wasn't human, or try too. He had never killed in the past, he just decided that they needed to be dead one day. Everything from my dogs and cats to the horses.

Killing small animals, being dog aggressive and being vicious are entirely different things.

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Postby IamaDick » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:28 am

barbponys wrote:
Killing small animals, being dog aggressive and being vicious are entirely different things.


Very true :thumbsup:

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Postby FransterDoo » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:50 am

http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfed.com/myths/bloodthirsty.html

Myth: RAW MEAT WILL MAKE MY DOG BLOODTHIRSTY.
What does this mean, exactly? How does feeding a dog what it was designed to be fed make it bloodthirsty? By nature the dog is a carnivorous predator. A dog that chases things (with or without killing them) is just being true to what it is: a dog. Feeding a dog meat is not going to turn a dog into some vicious animal that will attack every living thing that moves.

People fail to understand that dogs are carnivorous predators. They are supposed to "have a taste for meat." They are supposed to go out and hunt their own food. Dogs NEED MEAT in their food; they are carnivores!! With the domestication of livestock and introduction of smaller pets, hunting and killing on their own became undesirable. People bred and selected dogs that could coexist peacefully with such animals but still retained enough prey drive to do things like retrieve and herd. This is why dogs retrieve balls and chase toys and animals that move quickly. It is interesting to note that herding breeds have coexisted peacefully with the animals they herded without savaging or killing them, even while these dogs were fed raw meat and bones from the very same kinds of animals they were guarding.

The dog is, by nature, a predator, and will chase other animals because it is hard-wired to do so, not because it is bloodthirsty or has a taste for meat in the human definition of the words. Feeding raw does nothing to change this. If the dog is full and happy with the raw meaty bones it is eating at home, why would it go out and kill things? It has no need to. If a dog is going out and killing other animals despite having its nutritional needs met at home, the link exists more strongly between the human-dog relationship and/or the vaccine-dog relationship, rather than the diet-dog relationship (one "exception" to this exists and will be discussed later). Dogs can be trained to not harm or bother prey-type animals. The dog should be respecting its human's leadership and should be able to sufficiently restrain itself (although with some breeds—like hounds and terriers, for example—and some high-drive individuals, this can be difficult to do regardless of diet. All dogs are individuals; some have high prey drives, and some could care less about moving things.). People would much rather blame the diet (that my dog gets meat with his kibble) than the fact that their negligence and the flaws in their relationship with their dog resulted in the death of another animal, or that the vaccinations they have had so dutifully administered (just like any good pet owner should, right?) could actually have harmed their dog and caused this 'killing for sport' behavior.

Yet the "raw meat-dog goes out killing things" link exists very strongly in people's minds, despite the fact that many commercially-fed animals still hunt or kill small pets. This link has been helped by the "discovery" that dogs are omnivores (which they are not! See omnivore myth). When a dog is being fed an inappropriate, grain-based diet, it will undoubtedly react more strongly to being fed what it was supposed to be fed as opposed to it being fed correctly (a raw prey model diet) from the get-go. So this means that someone who feeds their dogs raw meat occasionally and a crappy kibble the rest of the time might have a dog that will go out and hunt for its own food to eat real meat instead of that crappy kibble. In a sense, yes, they ha given the dog a "taste for meat"—a taste for the real food it should be eating. But if the dog was fed appropriately, it would not need to go out and hunt. And it is a dog, so it is supposed to hunt! Does this mean adding raw meat to any dog's kibble will make it "bloodthirsty" so that it will attack children and other animals? Of course not! There are thousands of people who add raw meat to their dogs' kibbled food and have no problems with "bloodthirsty" dogs. But if you are going to add meat to your dog's kibble, why not just go all the way and nix the processed food? On a diet of raw meaty bones, the dog does not have any need to go out and find meat. Additionally, the excessive amounts of carbohydrates in the processed food plus all the additives and strange preservatives can have a negative impact on the dog; people have reported that their formerly aggressive and hyperactive dogs calmed down considerably once they were switched to a more 'natural' diet (see the Raw Meaty Bones July 2005 newsletter; scroll down to 'DOG BITES').

People are quick to blame the diet of meat rather than investigate the other issues. Does the dog hunt regularly? Why is the dog given opportunity to hunt? Why does the dog feel a need to hunt? Is the dog actively submitting to and respecting the owner's leadership? What is the dog fed normally? Does this hunting behavior increase in intensity after vaccination (particularly rabies vaccination)? Does the hunting behavior vary with what it is fed, or is it constant? Is there another dog it hunts with? What do they hunt, and how often? Can it be a "behavioral" issue or a relational issue (obviously, a dog left outside and neglected will be more likely to fend for itself)? What about temperament issues (some dogs are confirmed livestock killers or pleasure killers, regardless of diet) or vaccine-related issues (vaccinosis)?

Humans were the ones that deemed the killing behavior as inappropriate and unwanted. Humans tend to expect dogs to exhibit only the delightful behaviors that benefit us, and to act as little humans in fur coats. But when the dog acts in accordance to its canine behavior, some people get upset and think the animal is "messed up" or is a "bad dog." They do not work through the behavior and do not teach the dog the desirable behavior or get it treated homeopathically for vaccinosis issues (such as excessive fear and aggression), and then chain it in the backyard or dump it at a shelter. Or they do not want to take the time to feed a raw diet or work through the relationship issues, and thus condemn their dog to a lifetime of sub-optimal health or an inadequate relationship riddled with "problems" because they were too selfish to devote the necessary time to improving the dog's health or improving their relationship.

There are thousands of dogs being fed raw meat and bones with no ill effects. These dogs coexist quite peacefully with children, cats, rabbits, and livestock without even considering a "bloodthirsty" thought. Raw-fed herding German Shepherds are not out there savaging the sheep! Dogs fed raw have no need to go out and hunt to supplement their diet with real food; they are already eating real food. As for the dog eating kibble and meat: it is like giving a kid a taste of steak and then expecting him to continue eating Total cereal every day. I would go looking for the steak, wouldn't you?

If you are concerned about your dog eating meat and then attacking your cats, children, or small pets, you do not need to worry. Feeding raw meaty bones is not going to turn your animal into this half-crazed bloodthirsty maniac. The dog should recognize the kids, the cats, and the small pets as a) part of its own family, and/or b) under the protection of the alpha leader (which should be you!). In all likelihood, you will see a calmer, happier pet that is more of a pleasure to be around—not only because he is not hyperactive from all the carbohydrates and additives in the kibble, but also because his breath will smell better and his coat will feel and smell softer and cleaner. If people tell you the dog is going to become bloodthirsty or will have a taste for meat, ask them to explain that overused cliche. If you use those cliches, take time to think through what they mean and whether or not that is really a logical thought process. In reality, your dog is much more likely to exhibit behavioral changes of fear and/or aggression after receiving its rabies shot than become a half-crazed bloodthirsty hunter by eating the raw meaty bones it was designed to eat.

To see a brief photo essay that helps debunk the erroneous link between raw diets and aggressive, bloodthirsty animals, please visit Colby the "Killer".

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Postby FransterDoo » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:55 am

Franny flushed a rabbit while getting her beloved tennis ball when we were on vacation. Thing ran right in front of her and she just stared at it with her ball in her mouth.

We show her live chickens: "Look Fran. There's dinner." and joke that she's probably thinking: "where's the baggie? where's the fridge?"

Alone, Franny has the prey drive of a stick. She was like that when she ate kibble and she's like that now.


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