High protein kibble

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.
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SFBullyGirl
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Postby SFBullyGirl » Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:25 am

I only have the experience my mom had, she had her two dogs on it when they were 6 -9 months old and when her female went to get to get spayed at 6 months her kidney levels were fine. She had surgery 3 months later for entropian and they tested her again and her kidney levels were elevated. So the doctor said take her off the Evo and then when tested a few weeks later she was back to normal.

This may not appy to all dogs though, just my experience.

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Postby chewbecca » Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:51 am

Turb0wned wrote:I dont know, I wouldnt feed a very young large/giant breed evo but now that tyson is almost 8 months its what he is about to start eating. I dont see why it would be bad atleast for a dog around his ago to start feeding evo. I read in the link posted above where it said not to feed it but most of you on this site dont even ever start with a puppy formual, in the end there all about the same thing.



I wouldn't put him on it.

Even at 8 months old, your pup is STILL growing. A food like Evo, with high calcium, can cause bone growth issues. Not to mention what the high ash level could do to his growing kidneys (but that can be solved by adding water to his food, considerable amounts, not a ton, but more than a sprinkle).

No, most of don't feed a puppy formula here, because as Misskiwi stated on another forum: ALS foods ARE puppy foods. Most Super Premiums (timberwolf, Nature's Variety, etc...) are all life stages foods. Because they are also puppy foods. That's why we end up having to feed less to our adult dogs.
It's NOT "about the same thing". It can mean the difference between your 8 month old pup's bones growing correctly, vs. them NOT growing correctly.

I would NOT feed Evo to a pup that is younger than 2 years old. But that's my opinion.

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Postby Turb0wned » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:11 pm

I just dont see how it would affect him being that if were in the wild he would be eating a high protien meal every day.

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Postby chewbecca » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:23 pm

Turb0wned wrote:I just dont see how it would affect him being that if were in the wild he would be eating a high protien meal every day.


It's not the high protein that is damaging.
It's the high calcium and the excess minerals left over from the processed kibble that wouldn't be in whole prey diet that they'd get in the wild.

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Postby Turb0wned » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:26 pm

Canidae has 1.40% calcium
Evo has 3.03% calcium

Is that really a huge increase that can do damage for an 8 month old active dog? Im not saying your wrong and im right (acually it's good to hear everyone's point of view) but there are so many different opinions on this subject and is they any proof that it will do damage?

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Postby chewbecca » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:31 pm

Turb0wned wrote:Canidae has 1.40% calcium
Evo has 3.03% calcium

Is that really a huge increase that can do damage for an 8 month old active dog? Im not saying your wrong and im right (acually it's good to hear everyone's point of view) but there are so many different opinions on this subject and is they any proof that it will do damage?



Actually, every opinion I've ever read on the matter (on several boards and from an actual canine nutritionist who posts here) is that it's a BAD idea.

That is quite a BIT of difference, actually, with ratios as sensitive as the ratios of calcium and phosphorus.
For high protein/grain-free, I'd go Timberwolf's Wild & Natural where the calcium is correct for pups and it's grain free. Not to mention the levels of ash are extremely low (because Timberwolf actually CARES about that).
And if you cannot find it locally, then you can get it from their website where shipping is free. :))


hahaha, sorry, not to sound pushy, I'm just very anti- too much calcium for puppies and anti-ash content as well.

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Postby snoopsnoop » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:32 pm

Turb0wned wrote:Canidae has 1.40% calcium
Evo has 3.03% calcium

Is that really a huge increase that can do damage for an 8 month old active dog? Im not saying your wrong and im right (acually it's good to hear everyone's point of view) but there are so many different opinions on this subject and is they any proof that it will do damage?


Its not just the amount of calcium in the food. It's the ratio between the calcium to the phosphorus in the food. I'm sure misskiwi will elaborate, or someone else will. I don't know the specifics as to what levels are appropriate.

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Postby snoopsnoop » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:36 pm

chewbecca wrote:
Turb0wned wrote:Canidae has 1.40% calcium
Evo has 3.03% calcium

Is that really a huge increase that can do damage for an 8 month old active dog? Im not saying your wrong and im right (acually it's good to hear everyone's point of view) but there are so many different opinions on this subject and is they any proof that it will do damage?



Actually, every opinion I've ever read on the matter (on several boards and from an actual canine nutritionist who posts here) is that it's a BAD idea.

That is quite a BIT of difference, actually, with ratios as sensitive as the ratios of calcium and phosphorus.
For high protein/grain-free, I'd go Timberwolf's Wild & Natural where the calcium is correct for pups and it's grain free. Not to mention the levels of ash are extremely low (because Timberwolf actually CARES about that).
And if you cannot find it locally, then you can get it from their website where shipping is free. :))


hahaha, sorry, not to sound pushy, I'm just very anti- too much calcium for puppies and anti-ash content as well.


I'm feeding TW W&N. Protein is 30-some% if not exactly 30. Snoopy's almost two (will be end of Oct). I switched from EVO to TW to reduce the risk of him having kidney issues. Though I've been told that with as active as Snoopy is, I shouldn't have had an issue, i figure better safe than sorry. He likes this food better than the EVO, too.

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Postby Turb0wned » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:51 pm

This is a taken directly from there website.

"Animal feeding tests using AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) procedures substantiate that EVO Dog Small Bites Dry Dog Food provides complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages."

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Postby Turb0wned » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:57 pm

And this was taken from another forum. This was a question to innova from a member.

"I asked if Evo was indeed supposed to be "identical" dry matter wise to a raw diet. The answer was yes

I asked if raw diets were fed to large breed puppies the answer was yes

I asked why then did they tell someone (you) that Evo should not be fed to Large breed puppies and the answer was "because the average owner of a large breed puppy does not adequately regulate their puppy's intake of kibble and maintain a slow and lean growth model wheeas the majority of raw feeders do"

I asked why was their caution to not feed to large breed puppies on the bag and website if this was a true concern and I got a bunch of um wells.

So the bottom line seems to be if you are average puppy owner and allow your pups to be at maximum weight or above then NO do not feed Evo to large breed puppies. If however you are able to regulate your pups intake like you should and maintain a LEAN (as in can almost see the last rib) puppy then yes you can"

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Postby Misskiwi67 » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:51 pm

Turb0wned wrote:This is a taken directly from there website.

"Animal feeding tests using AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) procedures substantiate that EVO Dog Small Bites Dry Dog Food provides complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages."


Which means 6 of 8 dogs were able to live on the food for a couple months. It prevents disasterous formulas, but not bad ones. 'Ol Roy also passed the AAFCO testing.

I'm on my way out for the evening, but I'll post up some studies on calcium:phosphorus and large breed puppies later. If you want to do your own reading, go to www.pubmed.com and do a search of your own.

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Postby beckerhead » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:02 pm

Just to add a little info.


Calcium and phosphorous are essential minerals in the body. The daily requirements vary depending upon the age and status of the dog or cat. Phosphorous and calcium deficiency and excess can occur and the ratio of calcium to phosphorous (Ca:P) is important.

Calcium

Of all the minerals, calcium is required in the greatest amount. Calcium is essential in the body for many functions including bone formation, blood coagulation, muscle contraction, and nerve impulse transmission. The calcium content of food ingredients varies widely. Bones, dairy products, and leguminous plants contain large amounts of calcium, whereas most cereal grains, meat, and organ tissues contain small amounts.

Phosphorous

Phosphorous is the other dietary mineral required in a relatively high amount in the diet. Phosphorous is required at levels slightly less than calcium. Meat or organ meats are high in phosphorous but relatively low in calcium. Phosphorous deficiency is a significant problem in herbivores and is probably the most common mineral nutrition deficiency present in animals worldwide. However, phosphorous deficiency occurs very infrequently in dogs and cats. In fact, excessive dietary phosphorous which accelerates the progression of renal failure is much more common.

Calcium:phosphorous ratio

Many foods that are low in calcium are high in phosphorous, and in addition, many foods that are high in calcium are equally high in phosphorous. Therefore, providing the correct calcium to phosphorous ratio in the diet can be difficult unless the proper minerals are added. It is very important that calcium and phosphorous be fed at the correct ratio of around 1.2 parts of calcium for each 1 part of phosphorous (1.2:1).

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Postby Hoss » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:30 pm

I will say it again, lol, just because the % is high, or lower, than another food, it does not equate into more, or less levels.... I don't know why this concept is so hard for you people to grasp. Ol roy may have 1% calcium and brand X may have 3%, which ones has more calcium in grams per serving? :tongue:

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Postby Maryellen » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:04 pm

the pup in question is a pit puppy.

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Postby maximusflys » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:35 pm

Hoss wrote:I will say it again, lol, just because the % is high, or lower, than another food, it does not equate into more, or less levels.... I don't know why this concept is so hard for you people to grasp. Ol roy may have 1% calcium and brand X may have 3%, which ones has more calcium in grams per serving? :tongue:


I get it Hoss!!!! It's just hard to reach people sometimes


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