Is corn really bad, or not?

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.
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Linariel
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Postby Linariel » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:35 pm

There are options that aren't hard to metabolize but aren't hard on the blood sugar.

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Misskiwi67
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Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:36 pm

Such as??? I'm still not getting any solid info from anyone here... if there is something better than corn, what is it?

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Postby Gatorpit » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:39 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:Such as??? I'm still not getting any solid info from anyone here... if there is something better than corn, what is it?


Yeah see? That's my whole point of making this it's own thread. I have been given a form of proof that corn is not as bad as we all think. I have been given no forms of proof to the contrary.

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Linariel
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Postby Linariel » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:42 pm

Well, brown rice is not that hard to metabolize, is it? Even white rice is lower on the GI. I'm sure there are others, but I can't think of anything offhand.

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Postby BabyReba » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:08 pm

An interesting article in the NYT Magazine that relates to this discussion:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/magazine/02pet-t.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

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Sarah
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Postby Sarah » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:48 pm

I saw a chart somewhere that showed the digestibility of rice being the highest of all the grains, but I don't recall where it was, so that's not very useful information. ;)

I am not opposed to feeding a dog grain at all, I think most dogs do fine eating grain. I do think that corn causes problems for a lot of dogs, I think it's very common for dogs to have difficulty digesting it. For dogs that can digest corn, and don't have a sensitivity to it, there is no problem with corn. So if a dog is doing well on a food with corn, no need to change the food, but if a dog is having problems, my first option would be to get away from the corn.

I don't feed corn because of that. When I first switched to a corn-free diet, years ago, the main thing I noticed was that Elmo wasn't gassy anymore. That in itself is reason enough for me to stay away from corn! None of my dogs have much in the way of food sensitivities, but I'd prefer that they also digest their food properly, without becoming gassy. They do very well on their diet, which has rice as it's only grain.

Experience tells me that the claim that food allergies are rare in dogs is very not true, and that throws the rest of it into suspicion for me. Food allergies were pretty common in the dogs treated at the vet practice I worked at for 5 years. Food allergies were commonly treated by putting the dog on an elimination diet, and that is pretty conclusive evidence that the diagnosis is correct.

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Postby SFBullyGirl » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:57 pm

Interesting article BabyReba

here is a chart that shows what you were saying Sarah, it is from the website I referenced on page 1, the lady that makes her own food.



Nutrient digestibility of the feed ingredients for dogs

C.M.L. Sá-Fortes, N.K. Sakomura, A.C. Carciofi, M.O. Mendonca and E.V.V. Freitas
Universidade Estadual Paulista . Faculdade de Ciéncias Agrárias e Veterinárias . UNESP FCAV, Brazil

The knowledge of food and raw material digestibility is critical to the reliable formulation of animal diets. However, information relating to the digestibility of ingredients in pet foods is limited, The objective of this experiment was to compare the apparent digestibility of dry matter, crude protein, ether extract, starch and nitrogen-free extract of corn, sorghum, rice bran, wheat meal, rice meal, corn germ and pearl millet. Eight adult dogs were distributed in a 8x8 Latin square design, with eight treatments (ingredients) and eight periods. The animals were individually placed in metabolism cages and fed a basal diet (BD) and test diets (70% of BD and 30% test ingredient). All the diets were extruded to cook the starch and to provide a consistent texture. The results presented in Table 1 demonstrate that the nutrient digestibility of corn, rice bran, sorghum and pearl millet were similar to each other and had a higher digestibility compared to corn germ, wheat meal and rice meal. The observed lower digestibility of these ingredients is most probably due to the high fiber levels. This fact has also been observed in other studies proving that nutrient digestibility is influenced by the source and level of dietary fiber in the diet.

Table 1. Apparent digestibility coefficients (%) of ingredients for dogs.
Ingredients DM CP EE Starch NFE
Pearl millet 86.1 77.2 81.7 99.1 89.2
Rice bran 90.5 74.8 66.8 99.2 94.4
Corn germ 66.6 65.0 48.2 95.5 73.9
Sorghum grain 90.4 88.6 78.6 98.7 92.0
Wheat meal 60.7 67.5 53.8 89.6 56.1
Corn grain 89.3 88.6 83.0 98.5 90.0
Rice meal 56.3 72.5 85.2 90.4 43.5
CV, % 5.3 9.2 9.9 1.7 5.0

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Postby El_EmDubya » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:02 pm

Quinoa?

Low Glycemic, high protein grain.

Anyone tried it?

Marie

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Sarah
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Postby Sarah » Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:23 pm

Here we are:

"Digestibility depends on quality and type of grain used: rice (72%) is for example more digestible than wheat (60%) or corn (54%). Dogs can absorb the digestible carbohydrates from rice almost entirely, of the other grains about 20% are not absorbed. "

I don't think that's the chart I originally saw, but it's similar info. It's from this page:
Dog Food Project- Myths About Feeding and Nutrition

I recommend the entire website, very good reading.

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Postby concreterose » Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:24 am

EL_EmDubya wrote:Quinoa?

Low Glycemic, high protein grain.

Anyone tried it?

Marie


Yes, I've used quinoa in my cat's renal friendly recipe, as it calls for grain. The recommended grains were white rice, quinoa, or millet, all high protein, low glycemic grains.

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Postby Wooderson » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:03 am

The original article does not say that "corn is good food" although it is carefully worded to give the reader that impression. What the article actually says is "as grains go, some corn byproducts are not so bad."

You do the math.

I mostly feed Redhead random cuts of raw meat, although he also gets bones, juices, fruits, veggies, probiotics. For that matter, he will gladly eat whole corn if given the chance. Russian vets generally support this practice, going so far as to comment "he is so healthy, I can tell you feed him natural meat and bones."

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Postby Gatorpit » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:45 am

Sarah wrote:Here we are:

"Digestibility depends on quality and type of grain used: rice (72%) is for example more digestible than wheat (60%) or corn (54%). Dogs can absorb the digestible carbohydrates from rice almost entirely, of the other grains about 20% are not absorbed. "


The beowolf's article says

Corn is 91% digestible


That's a big damn difference...

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Postby Hoss » Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:49 pm

Which "corn"are we referring to? There are thousands of different varieties. What grade of corn? and by what party grading standards? Answer those questions, and you will see a dramatic difference in "how bad is corn for dogs?" Shelled out, empty hulls, of twice processed grain kernels, it nothing but filler. Yes there are some nutrients in corn, and a dog could be forced to attempt to assimilate them from it, but give the carnivores their damn meat!

It seems like people think that the corn that goes into low quality dog food, is the same stuff as you buy at a grocery. lol Most would loose their lunch if they seen the maggot infested crap that gets refused for all other means, and is put into dog food. It doesn't even resemble "corn" as most know it.

There is no one correct answer to how good, or bad corn is for canines, there are way to many variables, get specific, and you can find the answers. :peace:

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Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:15 pm

Hoss wrote:Which "corn"are we referring to? There are thousands of different varieties. What grade of corn? and by what party grading standards? Answer those questions, and you will see a dramatic difference in "how bad is corn for dogs?" Shelled out, empty hulls, of twice processed grain kernels, it nothing but filler. Yes there are some nutrients in corn, and a dog could be forced to attempt to assimilate them from it, but give the carnivores their damn meat!

It seems like people think that the corn that goes into low quality dog food, is the same stuff as you buy at a grocery. lol Most would loose their lunch if they seen the maggot infested crap that gets refused for all other means, and is put into dog food. It doesn't even resemble "corn" as most know it.

There is no one correct answer to how good, or bad corn is for canines, there are way to many variables, get specific, and you can find the answers. :peace:


And you think the meat-based ingredients from the same companies that use the corn products such as those described above are any better? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but lets compare apples to apples here...

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Postby maximusflys » Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:03 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
Hoss wrote:Which "corn"are we referring to? There are thousands of different varieties. What grade of corn? and by what party grading standards? Answer those questions, and you will see a dramatic difference in "how bad is corn for dogs?" Shelled out, empty hulls, of twice processed grain kernels, it nothing but filler. Yes there are some nutrients in corn, and a dog could be forced to attempt to assimilate them from it, but give the carnivores their damn meat!

It seems like people think that the corn that goes into low quality dog food, is the same stuff as you buy at a grocery. lol Most would loose their lunch if they seen the maggot infested crap that gets refused for all other means, and is put into dog food. It doesn't even resemble "corn" as most know it.

There is no one correct answer to how good, or bad corn is for canines, there are way to many variables, get specific, and you can find the answers. :peace:


And you think the meat-based ingredients from the same companies that use the corn products such as those described above are any better? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but lets compare apples to apples here...


Yes, I believe those same companies that use cheap corn use cheap meat.


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