Is corn really bad, or not?

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.
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Gatorpit
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Postby Gatorpit » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:43 am

EL_EmDubya wrote:
Gatorpit wrote:
All those who are disgusted by these practices need to realize that they are neccesary to the growth of both human and animal medicine.


Having worked in animal research, I disagree with you strongly. Although some animal research is necessary, MUCH of it is a waste of both smart minds and animal bodies.

Marie


Yes, well I am reffering, obviously, to the ones that are necessary.

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Gatorpit
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Postby Gatorpit » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:45 am

On that vein, if you want to read two excellent books that describe incredibly unecessary animal experimentation, read "The Plague Dogs" writton by the guy who wrote "Watership Down", and the book "Dr. Rat."

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Allie
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Postby Allie » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:45 am

EL_EmDubya wrote: Having worked in animal research, I disagree with you strongly. Although some animal research is necessary, MUCH of it is a waste of both smart minds and animal bodies.
Marie


Heavens! What type of research did you work in?!

(I'm in cancer research and have yet to see anyone waste as you describe above)

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Postby Gatorpit » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:52 am

Some animal research is someone in a lab with some animals that say "Hmmm...what happens when..." and then experiment with living animals. Experiments have been done on pain tolerance and affects od adrenaline, this required live animals of different species to be tortured, and then killed to see what affects had occured.

How about experiments on heat exhaustion? Cause living animals of different species to overheat. How long does it take them to distress, to die? What temps kill what animals in what amount of time?

What are the affects of microwaves on 10 day old kittens?

What happens to the brains of monkeys when boiling water is poured on their heads?

These experiments and many others can and do take place.

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Allie
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Postby Allie » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:58 am

Yikes.
I'd love to see any of that ridiculous crap pass our animal care committee.
Scary and sad.


Ok, enough OT-- back to the corn.

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Postby buckaroo » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:00 pm

Gatorpit wrote:Some animal research is someone in a lab with some animals that say "Hmmm...what happens when..." and then experiment with living animals. Experiments have been done on pain tolerance and affects od adrenaline, this required live animals of different species to be tortured, and then killed to see what affects had occured.

How about experiments on heat exhaustion? Cause living animals of different species to overheat. How long does it take them to distress, to die? What temps kill what animals in what amount of time?

What are the affects of microwaves on 10 day old kittens?

What happens to the brains of monkeys when boiling water is poured on their heads?

These experiments and many others can and do take place.

Really? Prove it.

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Allie
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Postby Allie » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:01 pm

buckaroo wrote: Really? Prove it.


I think this may need to be moved to a different thread before the mods have to split or delete it.....

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Postby maximusflys » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:07 pm

Research like that does happen. That kind of stuff is only spread to the scientific community because alot of that research serves no purpose to the general community.

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Postby El_EmDubya » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:07 pm

Allie wrote:
EL_EmDubya wrote: Having worked in animal research, I disagree with you strongly. Although some animal research is necessary, MUCH of it is a waste of both smart minds and animal bodies.
Marie


Heavens! What type of research did you work in?!

(I'm in cancer research and have yet to see anyone waste as you describe above)


Neurology regarding neonates... NIH sponsored research. I've seen a lot of jumping through hoops to get Ph.Ds by graduate students in a broad spectrum of University run research as well.

The work I did at the SD Zoo was all non invasive, btw. :thumbsup:

Marie

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Postby rednoseErnie » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:37 pm

I and most of my friends are all in research as well, for over a decade. I do not work on vertebrates but my boyfriend does. In all of the places we have worked, animal protocols are strict and abided by. True, not 100% of experiments are "vital", although that is certainly in the eye of the beholder. Meaning, mice are often used for basic research, not just for testing drugs. Certainly things can be improved. But I believe that most good researchers are using animals responsibly. Also, animals are insanely expensive, and most labs only maintain and use the minimum number necessary.

And, if society deems that medical research must continue to advance (which I suppose it doesn't necessarily have to), animal work is vital and necessary.

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Postby El_EmDubya » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:47 pm

rednoseErnie wrote: True, not 100% of experiments are "vital", Certainly things can be improved. ...

And, if society deems that medical research must continue to advance (which I suppose it doesn't necessarily have to), animal work is vital and necessary.


My comments were directed regarding the "vital"ness of the research, not regarding following protocols. I do believe some research is necessary as "holistic" research would involve the "whole" system...

But I digress...weren't we talking about corn?

Marie

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Postby Gatorpit » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:00 pm

I started a topic to discuss experimentation in the misc. section.

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Postby Misskiwi67 » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:21 pm

EL_EmDubya wrote:
Watching animals in the wild, you realize that despite zoos' best intentions and all the research backing their work, the manufactured diet (and caged lifestyle) does not produce the spectacular health produced in the wild.



For which species? Some or all?? Would you not agree that specialists are much harder to maintain than non-specialists such as scavengers??

Although I definately agree that most dogs would not thrive on soybeans and corn alone... but they could probably live normal lifespans and many dogs do survive and look great on crappy foods none of us would touch. I'm sad to say I see a lot of dogs do well on 'Ol Roy and its companion foods... and other dogs look horrid. Some dogs are more sensitive and others are more adaptable than others.

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Postby Gatorpit » Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:10 am

Don't most animals in actual zoos as opposed to crappy roadside attractions, feed animals a natural diet, as opposed to an artificial diet?

I'm pretty sure most zoos feed carnivores actual meat, as opposed to pelleted foods like dog food, even if they are species specific.

I know they give monkeys monkey biscuits but they always get fresh fruits and veggies everyday too. At least at any zoo worth the name.

Now I know, for example that the company Matzuri makes species specific diets, like wild canid, vulpine, and small cat diets, but I think these are marketed more towards private collectors than zoos.

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Postby egostang » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:45 am

If he wouldn't eat it in a 'wild' setting I don't think I'd feed it.

Though Jack will eat just about anything that goes near his mouth. :crazy:


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