raw feeders, when do you stop worrying?

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.
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kaytenmags
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Postby kaytenmags » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:52 pm

pitgrrl wrote:Don't forget that not ripping and tearing doesn't prepare the stomach to receive food, therefore messing up the entire digestive process

lol dammit, i forgot that one! i really like the rawfeeding list, but there are definately a few rightious people on there!

BabyReba wrote:I've definitely found veggies to be beneficial to my dogs' health, as far as the fiber goes, so I have no qualms there.

so what health benifit is the fiber? is it just a poop thing?

BabyReba wrote:I'd prefer to be able to feed lots of bones, and the dogs do love them. But I've just had too many bad experiences with the 4 AM pukes full of pointy bone hunks.

i went through that when i first started. but it sorted itself out after a week or so.

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BabyReba
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Postby BabyReba » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:40 pm

yep. reba gets wickedly constipated if she eats just meat and bone. to the point where i have had to have her sedated and have the vet use a forceps to break up impacted fecal material in her colon to get it out. the dog NEEDS fiber and the best way i can provide that is through pulverized veggie matter. or i could give her a fiber supplement, such as metamucil, but i'd rather feed her punkin and squash and stuff than give her pharmaceutical fiber. both the boys will also get constipated from time to time as well.

so fiber it is. it certainly isn't hurting them any and they enjoy it.

after feeding raw for a couple of years to reba, the puking never sorted itself out.

i started feeding reba raw 3 years ago, then went back to kibble for a while when i moved out of my ex's house. then back to raw. tucker started out on raw and kibble as a puppy. then we switched over to full raw at around a year or so. he's 2 now. still pukes up mad bone hunks from time to time. reba would eat an entire chicken frame and puke up half a spine in the night.

never did sort itself out, and waiting for it to resolve was scaring the crap out of me. so now they eat mostly ground bone and premade raw. the only bones they get whole on a regular basis these days are recreational bones. ones they can gnaw on but not swallow, like knuckle bones. and chicken wings and leg quarters.

doc is the only dog i have who eats raw with no problems whatsoever. he is actually the one of my 3 dogs who actually has had fantastic results from the diet as well. it's been fantastic for him.

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kaytenmags
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Postby kaytenmags » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:32 pm

wow. sounds like you've gone through a fair bit trying to work out what's best for your dogs. kudos :thumbsup:

maggie is VERY sensitive to most people food (i have to watch her like a hawk at my parents place), but with meat she's been pretty good. it took a few weeks to sort out her system when we first started, but now i have some pretty decent leeway with the meat/bone ratio. if she gets a lot of bone one day, and boneless the next, her poops just stay pretty even. guess i'm lucky!

the only thing i have to watch out for is too much salmon (runny poops, upset tummy), and beef. beef gives her SERIOUS gas. it's room clearing. heck, it's HOUSE clearing. :yucky:

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Postby FransterDoo » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:49 pm

kaytenmags wrote:
BabyReba wrote:i'm afraid to even ask . . . but what's wrong with ground bone and veggies, according to these people?

some of the people on the rawfeeding list get their knickers in a twist about ground meat because it doesn't require the dog to chew much, therefore it encourages gulping and doesn't clean the teeth.

the veggies are evil spawn on that list lol
they're not 'natural prey' for a dog, and they can't digest it properly. it's heavily preached on that list that dogs are carnivores, not omnivores.

i can agree with that to a point. i mean, if my dog was in the wild, i don't think i'd find her in the vegitable patch lol
then again, she loves asparagus and carrots, so she gets handouts every so often!


yeah, the big list gets pretty dogmatic but it's better than explaining myself 87,000 times because "the BARF 101 thread is too long".

I found that veggie work good for Pete and have no discernable effect on Fran and Hank BUT cutting the buffalo grind I used for supplementation with veggies stretches it and that helps the $$ side of it.

I think that after 2 1/2 years of feeding raw to a passle of dogs, I've found confidence in myself and my methods but I think it takes time to gain that knowledge and self-esteem. Kind of like training methods.

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Postby pitgrrl » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:33 pm

FransterDoo wrote:I think that after 2 1/2 years of feeding raw to a passle of dogs, I've found confidence in myself and my methods but I think it takes time to gain that knowledge and self-esteem. Kind of like training methods.


See that is exactly the issue I think. Figuring out the bone/meat/organ/whatever else ratios and what have you is fairly simple compared to getting rid of that nagging feeling of 'I must not be doing it right' which seems to be bred by the dominance of commercial dog food.

For myself at least, it seems so silly to buy pre-made patties which are essentially just ground up chickens with some bok choy thrown in, clearly something I could do myself, but obviously buying it is reassuring in some way. My guess is that so many "trusted" sources claiming that we, mere mortals couldn't possibly figure out the mysteries of the canine diet plus the taking on of complete responsibility (that we essentially have anyways) that stepping away from a pre-prepared food entails can be nerve wracking. Well, hopefully just for a while.

So, yeah, that's my excuse for posting new questions about all this once a week lol

And on that note, actually, the thing I fully appreciate about the yahoo list is the very 'don't worry, stop with the obsessive calculating already' tone, even if they do think veggies are the devil.

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Postby Maryellen » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:52 pm

the deer processor i deal with for the dogs raw will grind anything i ask her too, she also sells tripe/chicken and tripe/beef mixes , plus meat and veggie mixes too.. i just call her and ask her to grind whatever i want together with or without bone and i pick it up on a saturday.. i do weis for grocery meats for the dogs for whole chickens though, and use the deer processor for most everything else, and use omas pride and shoprite for organ meats.. i also have a poultry farm an hour away that sells to raw feeders too, with or without bone carcasses /parts..

i feeel the same way, when i first started i felt that i wasnt doing it right, so i stopped, then did kibble for a few years then went back to raw, its been i THINK 8 months i have done raw again now, and feel more confident but still question myself occasionally...

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Postby turtle » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:09 pm

Good thread! It has some good info and shows that each dog is different and that you really can't generalize.

I've been feeding half raw half kibble for 4 yrs now and my dog does great on this diet. I don't measure carefully, and feed about 70% meat and 30% bone in the raw, mostly chicken thighs. She also gets deer meat and bones, lamb necks, chicken or beef liver, chicken quarters, pretty much anything I can get on sale.

I do add kelp, salmon oil, apple cider vinegar, and she gets some veggies too. Mostly diced up raw carrot or broccoli, but she likes squash and sweet potatoes so she gets some of that when we eat it. She's not had any problems with the veggies nor with the raw meat and bones.

I think raw is much better than feeding just kibble. Most dogs do very well on it. And even feeding half raw half kibble showed a big improvement for my dog.

Guess I've been lucky since she has never puked up any bone pieces. That would make me worry. She's crunched up deer spine and ribs with no trouble, same with lamb necks.

There is soooo much info out there that you can drive yourself nuts if you listen to all of it!

If your dogs are doing well on your feeding method, then I would not be too worried. I think it takes a little time to get it figured out for your own dog.
.

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Postby Amie » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:29 pm

I think my answer to the "no veggies" crowd would be that I've not found a place that includes just-fed-stomachs in the meats they sell, and that's not an option for us. Wild dogs would get their veggies by what their prey had just eaten, so our desire to add veggies is not unreasonable.

Oscar gets K9 Kraving most days of the week, and I'll toss a few wings or legs on top some days, and just the meat other days, a back and the bag of innards and so on. I'm extremely non-scientific about it!

I did just order a meat grinder (today, actually) but I'll probably only use it for the cats, who've not been getting as much bone as I would like because of the difficulty in finding it ground up for them (in concordance with one who's allergic to chicken and hates rabbit). The dog does so well on just the cuts that I doubt I'd grind for him.

I haven't added any supplements, but I'll likely start doing that, just for my own sanity - I'm not sure they're getting enough tannin and other rarer nutrients.

Oscar didn't have a detox period, and he didn't really have any miraculous transformation either. He has improved, though, his ears are cleaner, his physique is a little more cut, but he's so very happy, and is now motivated by food, which he never ever was before.

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Postby pblove » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:02 am

Oscar didn't have a detox period, and he didn't really have any miraculous transformation either.

well I am glad my dogs aren;t the only ones that didn't have the miraculous transformation either. lol
(but I do wish I did see some difference in them, going from kibble to raw, it is going on a year now this time)

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Postby CinderDee » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:54 am

for the record, my recent experiences with feeding bone has not been all that good. i've gone over to ground meat and bone mixes and premade raw as the bulk of my dogs' diets


What kind of bone mixes, BR?

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Postby Timas Mom » Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:45 pm

I use human grade meat, along with some pre-ground 3p duck with bone ( fine ground bone) 1x week knuckle bone, canned salmon, and make my own vegie mix;

field berries
cranberries
carrot
bok choy
romaine
apple
parsley
spinach ( on rotation)

I add a vitamin pre mix from my vet, salmon oil capsules and vit e.

Timas coat is like velvet and even my Anti-raw bosses ( vets) both comment on how fab her teeth are. Tima CANT eat anything else, I ve tried 21 kibbles and gave up.

Leeloo eats Cal Natural Lamb and rice, as it has only 4 ingrediants. She was having issues and when she reaches a year we'll re-asses and see if she needs a chnage to raw or another food.

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Postby BabyReba » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:00 am

CinderDee wrote:
for the record, my recent experiences with feeding bone has not been all that good. i've gone over to ground meat and bone mixes and premade raw as the bulk of my dogs' diets


What kind of bone mixes, BR?


so far i've used ground turkey necks, ground chicken backs, and ground necks and backs with added breast meat. the place that sells the k9 kraving sells the ground necks, and there's a guy in southern maryland that sells the chicken and bone mixes.

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Postby Deniselynn » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:17 am

I give the dogs NV prepackaged raw and I will continue to do so. I admit, I am lazy and I don't mind spending the extra money. They are doing great having kibble/canned food in the am and raw at night.


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