vet said no raw???

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.
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Rinalia
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Postby Rinalia » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:21 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote: I've yet to see anything other than anecdotal information and horror stories for and against raw. There is ZERO science out there on the diet as a whole.


I hope you haven't seen horror stories FOR raw! :)

I totally get what you are saying, but I think there is scientific evidence regarding digestibility of raw proteins in wild and captive-bred exotics (I think Mech did somet studies with wolves...not 100% sure).

And let's say there isn't a breakdown of ilial digestive rates in wolves who eat raw v. kibble, it seems that, biologically speaking, there is enough evidence to support the idea that a carnivore has the ability to process and absorb nutrients in raw meat (without making a judgment statement on the pros and cons of raw meat).

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OrsonDogge
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Postby OrsonDogge » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:03 pm

i'm sorry, i was just making a blanket statement that cooking DOES change the make-up of meat, and that if your dog is allergic to the cooked version, doenst always mean they are allergic to the raw version.
Unfortunatly, lots are allergic to both. :sad:
Which i find very very odd that a carnivore could be allergic to a type of meat...where did that come from and how did that happen? Just isnt fair.

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Rinalia
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Postby Rinalia » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:07 pm

OrsonDogge wrote:Which i find very very odd that a carnivore could be allergic to a type of meat...where did that come from and how did that happen? Just isnt fair.


I don't know how common it is in the wild. It's possible that wild animals with such a physical aversion to meat might not make it to reproductive age.

But we have domestic carnivores. Add to that a penchant for seeing dogs as companions, and you get tolerant humans who will modify their canine's diet to accomodate digestive preferences.

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El_EmDubya
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Postby El_EmDubya » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:17 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote: There is ZERO science out there on the diet as a whole.

There is, however, a boatload of information showing the difference between raw and cooked foods. I personally prefer to compare the numbers myself, and having the individual vitamins listed by the microgram for just about every food in existance is a much more useful tool in my opinion.


We've had this discussion before roflmao

1. There is no Purina-sized indu$try supporting Raw, therefore no incentive for research.
2. Science is a trailing process. Anecdotal evidence is the motivation for research to explain what is being seen.
3. Numbers [sometimes] lie*, especially where business and government funding is attached.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the Raw topic, but I'd love it if you are ever in the SF Bay area if you could come and hang out with us crazy Raw folks. I think you'll like us, and I know we'd like you!

:hug:

Marie

*Excluding "outlyers" in non-normal populations or even excluding sub-populations is a common practice to improve the statistical results. This is one of the reasons the pharmaceutical industry is having such difficulty when they release drugs into the general population. If you test drugs on a group of 40ish White Males, you shouldn't be surprised when it causes depression in teens or heart attacks in people of African descent.

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Wesam
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Postby Wesam » Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:19 pm

jammin636 wrote:thats funny cause they sell science diet there and she suggested that i buy some.


I hate that crap, suggestions and all lol.

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Misskiwi67
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Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:37 pm

EL_EmDubya wrote:[

We've had this discussion before roflmao



Oh I know... I'd actually like to be more supportive, but with out some solid evidence, in my (future, 76 days!) profession, its just not a good idea.

My reputation, livelihood and personal ethics require me to base my opinions on fact, and to educate on the full spectrum of risks and benefits... so I'm sorry if I'm a broken record all the time!

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El_EmDubya
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Postby El_EmDubya » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:40 pm

REALLY...my offer stands.

Come out to Califorina...the water is warm.

And if you want to hang out at the Marine Mammal Center, I've got a great connection. Wanna wrestle a Northern Fur Seal pup? Really, really...

Much love,

Marie

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Misskiwi67
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Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:40 pm

OrsonDogge wrote:Which i find very very odd that a carnivore could be allergic to a type of meat...where did that come from and how did that happen? Just isnt fair.


Its actually not that wierd if you think about it. What are the most common allergies in people?? Peanuts, seafood, dairy products, and wheat... ALL of which are high in protein!

The immune system is a funny thing. And its quite possible that wolf pups with allergies die young, and we just never realize what killed them. I'm sure there is also a HUGE selective pressure against an over-reactive immune system, where our canine companions have very different selective pressures, like cuteness :D

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Misskiwi67
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Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:41 pm

EL_EmDubya wrote:REALLY...my offer stands.

Come out to Califorina...the water is warm.

And if you want to hang out at the Marine Mammal Center, I've got a great connection. Wanna wrestle a Northern Fur Seal pup? Really, really...

Much love,

Marie


I might just have to take you up on that someday. I'm actually in Burlington, Washington right this minute for an interview tomorrow... I might end up as a west coast girl!

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MikeInTacoma
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Postby MikeInTacoma » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:50 am

Burlington is a little far for me to drive to see the vet, but Welcome anyway! (Warning -- it takes a bit to adjust to the latitude -- 19 hours of sun in the summer, 5 hours in winter... that's if it's not cloudy... but overall, it's really great here!)

Any chance that, in your chosen profession, you'll help correct the dearth of empirical studies on feeding raw to domestic canids?

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Misskiwi67
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Postby Misskiwi67 » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:26 am

wegobad wrote:Burlington is a little far for me to drive to see the vet, but Welcome anyway! (Warning -- it takes a bit to adjust to the latitude -- 19 hours of sun in the summer, 5 hours in winter... that's if it's not cloudy... but overall, it's really great here!)

Any chance that, in your chosen profession, you'll help correct the dearth of empirical studies on feeding raw to domestic canids?


I would be glad to help run a study if someone could come up with the half million dollars needed to run an appropriate, double-blinded study on at least 20 dogs for a period of at least a year.... I don't have that kind of funds to provide... and it might cost more than that!

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Postby Linariel » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:42 pm

It sounds to me like a simple case of an empty stomach. One drumstick is not a full meal, nor is it balanced. If it digests too quickly, they will puke when there is nothing in their stomach. Try feeding a full, balanced raw meal at night and see how that goes.

I once tried feeding my dogs more of their food in the morning, and a tiny meal at night. Most did ok, but one puked just like you are describing.


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