When does training turn to abuse?

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MissKitty
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When does training turn to abuse?

Postby MissKitty » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:46 pm

After reading this thread-
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=154960

It got me wondering, what is your opinion and if you know, what are the laws in your area on 'training' a dog vs. abuse.

The local e-collar trainer has been reported by myself and others to AC, when he 'trains' the dogs are *screaming*. He also put an e-collar and prong collar on an 8 week old puppy and applied both heavily. But according to animal control what he is doing is training, not abuse.

Apollo and I encountered a person on our walk hitting his dog with what looked like a 1x4, police were called and again it was deemed 'training' because he was 'teaching' his dog not to go swimming in his koi pond.

So where do you draw the line? Legally and morally?

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Breezy833
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Re: When does training turn to abuse?

Postby Breezy833 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:34 pm

When i got to the word *Screaming* in your post i thought i was gonna puke. I personally dont care for the e-collar. From what i've seen its ineffective unless your animal ALWAYS wares the collar.

I dont know what the "training laws" are in my state or county, but its it possible to post on line reviews and such to deter people from using that guy? or would that be considered slader?

again a 1X4?!? I couldnt imagine.

I have been an avid user of a nylon choker for traning our animals. I hired a guy for my last pup and that was his method. I didnt even really know there was another way until i got to this forum. And at this point i still wouldnt even know how to use the harness that i've seen in pictures. But i feel that im learning and am trying to employ some of the tips and threads from this site into our everyday life.

Thanks guys

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GoingPostal
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Re: When does training turn to abuse?

Postby GoingPostal » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:50 pm

Well the trainers around here are praised for choking dogs out and shocking them to the point of losing bowels and a friend called the cops on someone a few blocks down for beating their husky with a 2 x 4 to teach him not to chew on it. They didn't care. It seems to be perfectly acceptable to hurt or terrify dogs in the name of training for some reason. The local humane society brought up a CM wannabe and the whole crowd of people was just fine and thankful to that guy for jerking and kicking their dogs, even when one kick was hard enough that everyone could hear the thump.

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<3myBoogie
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Re: When does training turn to abuse?

Postby <3myBoogie » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:11 pm

I don't have much to add other than reading these is making me more and more afraid to hire a trainer for boog. What does more damage? Me waiting too long to professionally train? Or some yutz lighting off fireworks to reinforce his stay command. I think ill wait thank you. Ugh. Such an eye opener!

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Amie
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Re: When does training turn to abuse?

Postby Amie » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:51 pm


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Red
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Re: When does training turn to abuse?

Postby Red » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:49 am

<3myBoogie wrote:I don't have much to add other than reading these is making me more and more afraid to hire a trainer for boog. What does more damage? Me waiting too long to professionally train? Or some yutz lighting off fireworks to reinforce his stay command. I think ill wait thank you. Ugh. Such an eye opener!


I think you asked about finding a trainer before and some suggestion were given? Were you able to contact someone?

I am not sure what you are looking for, if just basic manners/obedience or more, but remember that there are steps you can take to learn to work with your dog. A knowledgeable trainer who is educated on the principle of learning and behavior in canines, and is respectful of who your dog is, is very valuable and an asset for the relationship with your animal but making use of other resources that are out there is also beneficial. Nowadays there is a lot available to those who want to learn, from books to DVDs, to free on line videos and workshop/seminars/lectures , to forums, articles and blogs etc.
While this is not a substitute for a professional , especially when it comes to more serious behavioral issues, being willing to put efforts into a few of these resources can be a huge help for dog owners who are not experienced when it comes to training. The same resources also give you guidelines on what kind of homework you have to do before you hire someone to help you and your dog.

Misskitty, I draw the line morally, because way too often the legal system doesn't do diddly squat when it comes to abuse in the name of training. Nor does the dog business itself, as it is not regulated in any way.

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<3myBoogie
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Re: When does training turn to abuse?

Postby <3myBoogie » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:07 pm

Red. Thanks! I've been doing my best to learn, and the suggestions were GREAT...I was just making a point about how searching for a trainer is so difficult! If there's one thing i learned from here is that not every "professional" knows what they're doing! Lol

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amalie79
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Re: When does training turn to abuse?

Postby amalie79 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:02 pm

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. We recently stepped back into the ring after over 6 months out. Watching the excessive pronging, choking and screaming that goes on with some "teams" is just depressing. I mean, it's not beat-with-a-2X4 abuse, but in the wrong hands it most certainly ain't pretty. I watched one woman *who was talking to her friend* pop the choke on her dog every time it glanced at another dog while she shouted, "I'm the mommy! I'm the mommy!!" Remember, she wasn't paying any attention to him, but he was supposed to be locked onto the underside of her chin apparently. One dog in the ring was so scared of his yelling owner that he broke away, ran to the steward, and rolled over on his back. And everyone laughed.

We went to the Incredible Dog Challenge finals this weekend. For the most part, it was nice and refreshing seeing people having fun with their dogs, working as a team (we also met Wallace and Roo, which was a super highlight!!). But the Jack Russel hurdle racing was awful. When 2 dogs started fighting on the field-- full on fighting with muzzles on-- the announcer said they were playing and the crowd laughed hysterically while these two poor miserable stressed animals tried to kill each other on the field. It was awful enough watching them be muzzled and shoved in the gate. The roar of a laughing crowd was too, too much.

I do clicker training. But it seems to me that, besides what should be obvious signs like pain, when the correction becomes personal, rather than simply communicative, it is abuse. The "I'll teach him not to defy me" response, that is abusive. When an animal's stress and/or pain are a source of amusement, that is also abuse.

I know that's not a legal definition. But it's my definition.

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AllisonPitbullLvr
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Re: When does training turn to abuse?

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:06 pm

Any time your trainer says "smile, people are watching" during your outdoor training sessions, that's a red flag.

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MarMar
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Re: When does training turn to abuse?

Postby MarMar » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:43 pm

It does seem like people will excuse almost anything done to dogs (or animals for that matter) if it's done in the name of "training". If you kick your dog, you are a bad person. If you kick your dog in an attempt to "train it"...apparently that's acceptable, as TV has shown us. Hey, it happens with kids too. I can't explain it, but the laws certainly aren't based on moral or ethical principles, that's for sure.

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HappyPuppy
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Re: When does training turn to abuse?

Postby HappyPuppy » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:30 pm

I feel like I abused my Ruby by going to a trainer that I thought I liked at first but then she started to parrot Cesar Milan and demand prong collars for every class and enforced corrections with the prong...... In my case, Ruby is a pretty soft dog and didn't need 'all of that' with her... so I feel that before I knew better, that I abused her in taking those classes and 'pronging' her when she didn't comply. I think it is all subjective and individual to each dog to a degree but there are definitely general principles involved that cross over those 'lines' of abuse and real training.........

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Red
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Re: When does training turn to abuse?

Postby Red » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:52 pm

Here is another example of how some people "train", at high level competition sport.This competitor, Patrick Keil has been recently excluded to participate in the FCI IPO in 2012 , because of the abuse seeing in the video.The dog is being beaten with a cattle prod, with a bunch of people watching and doing nothing to stop him.


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HappyPuppy
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Re: When does training turn to abuse?

Postby HappyPuppy » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:10 pm

^ HOLY EFFING CRAP!!!!!!!!!! ^

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Breezy833
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Re: When does training turn to abuse?

Postby Breezy833 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:20 pm

:eek: OMG

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AllisonPitbullLvr
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Re: When does training turn to abuse?

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:39 am

That guy, and the people around him, are fizzle idiots on a power trip. Poor dog. :(


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