Cesar Millan

Tricks, obedience, behavior, and more.
slickvic
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Postby slickvic » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:09 pm

i dont doubt there are other people doing the similar deed, however i doubt that anybody is helping the quanity of dogs that cesar is. Also, he is not a dog trainer, he rehabalitates problem dogs, i would love to see you control a huge pack of agressive dogs with treats and the absence of an established pack leader. OUt dated? since when is dna, animal instinct, outdated. It is a fact, that dogs are pack animals, it is a fact that it is natural for them to be a subordinate to a leader, also this was not my arguement. My arguement is, with all the scumbag dog fighters out there, i am surprised so many people spend teh time and get so emotionaly charged against a man who is dedicating his life to helping dogs, i can see people displaying this type of hate towards vick, and his croonies, but a man who clearly loves dogs and spends his life to help them, regardless of his financial situation or celeb. status. He helps dogs, so again, help as many dogs as he has and then point your finger

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Postby Stormi » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:47 pm

I might suggest reading the past 20 pages of this thread if you have concerns as to why most educated behaviorists have strong opinions of just how Cesar "helps" dogs.

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Postby slickvic » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:11 pm

i guess you missed the point of my post. for the third time, there are so many terrible things happenig to dogs all over teh world every second of every day for you "educated behavorists" to spend time nit picking cesar milan who is clearly pure in his intentions, despite his debatable methods. your, helps in quotations insinuates that you dont think he helps them? Hmm, euthenasia, or live with a huge pack of dogs, walk all day, have a place to lie their head at night, and get plenty to eat. Remain in a dog fighting organization, stay chained outside skin and bones freezing, or join the pack and eventually find a loving family. i am sorry but you educated behavorists must be void of healthy human relationships the way you constantly humanize these dogs, treating them like the girl or boyfriend, or child you never had. maybe instead of spending your precious time here pointing fingers at fellow dog lovers take a look at the writing on the wall, no doubt pure positive reinforcement has its place and is effective, the catastrophic condition of many dogs dont have time for you to sit in a room with them individually for hours doing your thing. i realize i have a matter of minutes before one of you hipicritical trolls come barking at me and painting a picture of me with devil horns, please put your money where your mouth is,stop wasting your time on cesar, and go help a dog, because isnt that what this site is about? now i remember why i quit coming on this site.

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Postby MikeInTacoma » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:54 pm

slickvic wrote:i guess you missed the point of my post. for the third time, there are so many terrible things happenig to dogs all over teh world every second of every day for you "educated behavorists" to spend time nit picking cesar milan who is clearly pure in his intentions, despite his debatable methods. your, helps in quotations insinuates that you dont think he helps them? Hmm, euthenasia, or live with a huge pack of dogs, walk all day, have a place to lie their head at night, and get plenty to eat. Remain in a dog fighting organization, stay chained outside skin and bones freezing, or join the pack and eventually find a loving family. i am sorry but you educated behavorists must be void of healthy human relationships the way you constantly humanize these dogs, treating them like the girl or boyfriend, or child you never had. maybe instead of spending your precious time here pointing fingers at fellow dog lovers take a look at the writing on the wall, no doubt pure positive reinforcement has its place and is effective, the catastrophic condition of many dogs dont have time for you to sit in a room with them individually for hours doing your thing. i realize i have a matter of minutes before one of you hipicritical trolls come barking at me and painting a picture of me with devil horns, please put your money where your mouth is,stop wasting your time on cesar, and go help a dog, because isnt that what this site is about? now i remember why i quit coming on this site.

Hi slick, I think you're painting us educated behaviorists / hypocritical trolls with too broad a brush. Only some of us never had a gf / bf / dw / dh / child, for example, as you would know if you read some of the "Miscellaneous" forum.

I for one don't hate Cesar Millan, though I hate what he's done to some of the dogs on his show (because I can see from their body language that they hate what he's done to them).

Actually, when I started reading PBF, I think my opinions were similar to yours: thousands of years of DNA, instincts, pack animals, human must be alpha, etc. The truth is, as with most things, surprisingly more complex. For example, the hierarchy (you know, which dog is alpha, which is beta, etc.) in a multi-dog household is more fluid than I realized, and affected by many factors, as demonstrated by researchers over the past 20 or 30 years. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell Mr. Millan hasn't integrated such "new" findings into his practice. Perhaps it doesn't fit with his personal experience or something (which underscores the importance of rigorous double-blind research -- it's hard to see and record, much less accept, data that makes it look like you've been doing things wrong). And for that, I do fault Mr. Millan. In at least one of his books, he recommends authors who have been following the latest research (McConnell and Donaldson, I think? it's been a while since I read it). So, he must be aware that there's a more enlightened way. Yet he mostly declines to demonstrate it on his TV show.

I do think he gets some things right: exercise, then structure (which he calls "discipline"), and then affection. And, he does emphasize that it takes time to change problematic behaviors, and that constant maintenance of the desired behaviors is necessary (though the editing of the show itself gives a contradictory impression). Unfortunately, he also gets some things badly wrong. And there's no need to. He has access to books, the internet, and behavioral scientists, but he's evidently too lazy or preoccupied with marketing his product to use them. I think that's why a lot of us hypocrites (some of whom have personally helped save / retrain / rehabilitate scores of dogs, including so-called Red Zone dogs) are disappointed with him.

(For the record, not me... I've got just one problem dog, and he's not fully saved... yet. Of course, without Cesar's show, I wouldn't even have this dog, because it was the show that convinced my gf that we could take this dog into our household. OTOH, it was partly by following bad advice from the show that I actually made my dog's problems worse. You know the disclaimer about not doing what they do on the show without consulting a professional behaviorist? I'm sure I'm not the only schmuck who ignored the disclaimer...)

So, I give Cesar a mixed grade. Something like A+ for marketing and publicity, D for staying current with best practices in animal care, for an overall grade of maybe C.

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Postby slickvic » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:28 pm

wegobad, i appreciate your response, and yes i was ticked off earlier and became guitlty of the same action that upset me in the first place. However, do you have any examples of things he does wrong, or an instance where you noticed a dog hate what he was doing. I have no degree but i have read several books on the topic, and with my expierence of recognizing signs in dogs, i havent seen anything like you describe. I am not saying there wasn't, again i am no professional by any means, i have seen almost every episode, some more than once and haven't noticed anything that stuck out. I do notice that his dogs will be look exhausted a lot, i am sure they run the hell out of the pack before they are seen and stuff.
Also, it is impossible to have a television show on network television and not have a huge team of marketers warping it to soothe the demands of the media. Though, i think it is pretty clear that he is a good man who wheather right of wrong believes what he is doing, is the right thing, and hasnt sold out what got him there in the first place like most people in his situation. and for better or worse helped a chocolate of dogs that didnt have an expensive behavoirist to go to.
My criticizim of the show as a whole, would be that it could possible give viewers a little too much confidence and could find themselves in ia bad situation, like you said. But it is a television show, not a, this is the reality of being a dog trainer and many owners dont keep up with the training and in weeks if not days the dog is right back to normal show.
I think your reply was the first mature one i have received since entering this site, its sad that i have to thank you, but thank you i appreciate your good response.

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Postby Red » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:32 am

. I have no degree but i have read several books on the topic, and with my expierence of recognizing signs in dogs, i havent seen anything like you describe.


If you are not aware of what body language means then you won't see nor understand things that are in your face.Take Kane's episode, for example.Kane was a Great Dane with fear of walking on slippery and shiny floors and the owner wanted to solve it to bring the dog into a school.The dog's was brought by Cesar into the school entrance, the collar was kept higher on his neck and he was held on place, and later dragged in order to start moving.If you paid attention to body language and stress responses you saw a dog drooling heavily, freezing in place, lowering his rear, tail tucked and ears down.That is a dog's body displaying a high level of stress and anxiety.The idea is that the dog needs to "face his fears".Calm submission or whatever he calls is actually actually learned helplessness in many cases he deals with, that I have seen on TV.Learned helplessness happens when an animal experience unavoidable punishment or is exposed to aversive stimulation without being able to escape.Behavior is inhibited but learning, the useful learning, does not happen.A little stress might be part of a dog's life, at some point, and dogs need to learn to cope with it but the amount of stress still needs to be reasonable.For that dog the floor was an aversive stimulus and he tried to communicate the way he knew, with his body language.
Perhaps you are not familiar with fear and the emotions that go with it (yes, dogs experience emotions) but as someone who work with fearful dogs and have learned how to apply behavior modification protocols in order to help these animals I can say that it is a bitch and there is nothing worse than to disregard the animal's emotion in order to obtain some kind of results.At the end you see a dog who finally walks on the floor and if that is all you care about then by all means CM is the deal. For me, or people like me who apparently have some kind of "void of healthy human relationships" so we need to be kind to animals, it is a quick fix and unfair to a dog.

If you wanted to see the other side of the story, such as what happens at a chemical level and emotionally when a dog is experiencing fear, that had already been explained a few pages ago.Flooding and incorrect exposure to stimuli has been explained.Example of episodes and body language was given.If people refuse to hear it then they are not able to understand why some methods are not only unnecessary but can do farther damage.
It is odd to me that people who worked to get a better understanding of dog behaviors end up being some kind of crazy folks when a whatever dude who lived in a farm can pop a few leash jerks and talk cra*p about dominance and pack outdated silliness and he is doing right by dogs.Yet the same dude is growled at, from one of his own dogs, when leaning over a bowl of food.That behavior itself, coming from home, is not exactly a good example of a respected pack leader.

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Postby slickvic » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:42 am

thank you, i dont doubt that you are correct with the example of Kane, but it worked, no? He went through fear but after what, a min. he was going on the floor no problem. i get it, there are some trained behavoirists here that could pick the show apart i am sure, however, my original point was, despite his debadable methods, he does good. I constnantly see terrible pit press, as i am sure everyone here does, and cesar someone in the lime light, up until recently with dog town and michael vic dogs, constantly promotes the truth about the breed, i would figure you guys would love him. He single handedly changed more minds about pitbulls than anybody on this site wil lever do. that was not my original statement but is anothe reason that i stand by my statement, that DESPITE his debatable methods, and by the way, that Kane example is pretty weak if you ask me, i am sorry but my heart goes out to the millions of pitbulls euthanized a year rather than a great dane that expierenced fear, to just get over it 1 min later, and i saw the show, so like a few min, but he was fine after a matter of minutes. i dont see why you guys waste so much energy picking at someone who has done so much for positive promotion for the breed you love, as well as other sterotyped breeds.

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Postby hugh_dog » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:51 am

I think the point Red was trying to make about the level of discomfort/fear and what is going on physiologically, which has been studied in depth, inside the dog in situations like the one that the Dane was placed in. Also, if you think that the dog was fine after walking on the floor "a few min" later, then you are missing something in your readings on canine body language, as it is clear that the dog was not "fine." I see a big problem with this, considering that if people are watching his show and thinking that they can do these things to their pit bull, missing or misinterpreting completely obvious body language, they are setting their dog up for failure. And when one one pit bull fails, redirecting stress caused by his owner who is trying to do the right thing yet ignoring the wisdom of those trying to point out what is being done wrong, and bites a child or stranger, then all pit bulls and responsible pit bull owners suffer.

And, given the press that BADRAP and Best Friends have received for the great progress/success they have had with the rescued Michael Vick dogs, using positive methods, not pushing the dogs past their threshold, I think it's safe to say that these two organizations have helped far more pit bulls than Mr. Millan has, both by showing the public the true nature of this breed on a MASSIVE scale, as well as showing potential dog owners the cooperation works so much better than coercion.

Cesar could better help pit bulls by putting his celebrity to use and writing a book about the breed, or even a video documentary on the breed, instead of plastering his face on tap water in a bottle and calling it "Cesars Water" or whatever it is called.

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Postby slickvic » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:08 pm

I saw the show, it showed the longer term progress, and she was bringin the dog to school every day, you are probably righ tabout immideatly after the dog looking fearful. Also there is a specific disclaimer before every show and after every commercial break stating, there are many ways to help your dog, yada yada, please consult a professional yada yada, agian it is a tv show, you cant blame cesar for stupid people misinterpreting pretty easy to understand information and running with it as if they can just wake up and do what he does. lets look at the other side o fthe coin, positive reinforcement books could also give people the illusion that just becaue buffy comes from the other room when i call him knowing he will get a tasty treat, when there outside and buffy sees a rabbit across the buisy street, buffy thinks hmm a rabbit or a treat which i get a milliontimes a day, well buffy gets his guts splatterd all over the road, is positive reinforcement to blame?, of course not, there will always be idiots.
And, cesar from day one had his helper Daddy, who happens to be a huge 102lb pitbull that is his poster child for good dog behavoir. He has stated more times than i can count, its not the breed, yada yada. You make positive pit press into a competition, saying that so and so helped far more, which is debatable anyhow, according to whom? I love what has happend with the vick dogs, i have two pitbulls and think its all great.
I have seen the discovery special with the vick dogs and they used, you guessed it, prong collars, i know pure evil, why dont you jump all over that. So i have repeatedly said, that despite his debatable methods, he has done a lot, again more than you and everyoen on this entire site put together to promote the truth about pitbulls. which is why i am surprised all these pitbull lovers paint him as the spawn of satan. thats my statement, and so far i have recieved many posts, and almost nothign to contridict it.

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Postby hugh_dog » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:33 pm

No YOU said that Cesar helped far more pit bulls than anyone, etc, so please don't try flipping that one around.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but I didn't read through your entire post because your lack of formatting, you know...paragraphs, spaces and punctuation, leaves just one big block of text and it makes it really hard for my eyes to focus long enough to get through it. Not worth a headache, to me anyway, to squint through that to try and make heads or tails of it.

Again, not trying to be a dick, just pointing out that it hurts my eyes so I didn't actually thoroughly read the post.

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Postby Amie » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:36 pm

slickvic wrote:he has done a lot, again more than you and everyoen on this entire site put together to promote the truth about pitbulls. which is why i am surprised all these pitbull lovers paint him as the spawn of satan. thats my statement, and so far i have recieved many posts, and almost nothign to contridict it.


I actually don't have strong feelings against him. Has he done good for our breed? Sure. Lots of people tell me they were scared of pit bulls until they saw Daddy. That's a great thing. He convinced my father that a dog needs training and should not just be let run wild, which is darn near miracle work.

Has he done the right things for our breed? If you ask me (and by posting on a public forum, you have asked me) no, he hasn't.

He is NOT "promoting the truth about pit bulls" as long as he is not making any distinction between human and dog aggression, as long as he is suggesting that absolutely any dog can be safe for the dog park if the owner is "calm and assertive", as long as he is implying that crate and rotate is a worse solution than sending a dog back to the shelter rather than stay in multiple dog homes.

And that should be a source of disappointment for any bully owner who has to explain once again that his dog is lovely and sweet and yet shouldn't go to the dog park. It should frustrate any bully owner who has to say once again that her dog who barks at that other dog is not going to turn around and eat that toddler. And it should flat out piss off anyone who has ever seen the number of bully breeds in shelters and rescues that got there because of dog aggression.

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Postby slickvic » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:50 pm

how do you expect to have an intelligent adult debate, if you dont read

my posts all the way, that is disrespectful, and a waste of everyone's time.

"He single handedly changed more minds about pitbulls than anybody on this site wil lever do."

No YOU said that Cesar helped far more pit bulls than anyone, etc, so please don't try flipping that one around.

Last time i checked the trainers involved on dog town werent a part of this site, correct me if i am wrong. it sounds like you are communicating with emotion and not logic.

amie, he has never once condoned bringing a pitbull to a dog park, he has said many times that dog parks are full of unstabel parks so beware of any breed. i agree pitbulsl have no place in a dog park, and i would have surley caught that if he said anything like that.


when has he said this?
"as long as he is implying that crate and rotate is a worse solution than sending a dog back to the shelter rather than stay in multiple dog homes."

he constantly makes the distinction between human and dog agression.

i am curious how many of you who dislike him so strongly have watched enough episodes to be able to make a 20 page thread.

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Postby hugh_dog » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:51 pm

Amie wrote:
slickvic wrote:he has done a lot, again more than you and everyoen on this entire site put together to promote the truth about pitbulls. which is why i am surprised all these pitbull lovers paint him as the spawn of satan. thats my statement, and so far i have recieved many posts, and almost nothign to contridict it.




Ahh, thanks Amy. I din't notice that little bit in his post due to the lack of formatting and run ons. That is why I brought up BADRAP in my first post...Since Donna Reynolds posts here on the forum, and he did say that Cesar has done more than everyone on this site put together, slick is saying that Cesar has done more than Donna and Tim to promote the truth about pit bulls, or in his words, "pitbulls." I guess a superb five page article in Sports Illustrated showing how far the "most dangerous dogs in America" have come since being rescued didn't really count for anything then? :dunno:

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Postby slickvic » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:59 pm

does donna reynolds single handedly run badwrap and write articles in sports illustrated, and this not english class hughie, you misspelled a few words yourself there tuff guy, eh.

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Postby slickvic » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:10 pm

i wish we wouldnt go down this road hughie, but if you want to pick apart every insignificant detail of my post than we can do this for hours. I can see that there will be no end to this, i am surprised at all the time i have spent trying to communicate with what appears to be a bunch of naieve sophisticated nobbs that probably check this foum 100 times a day doing this to other people who, like myself try to come and talk about pitbulls. oops i mean pit bulls for those of you with dyslexia or a 5th grade education. I have had some decent replies, so please lets not have the entire troop rip me apart for that comment. you won hughie, i wont be bothring any of you anymore you can go back to the one track minded format that this site seems to attempt to protect with its life. ohh and hughie, we both know that you read every single word i wrote, but found that your cat got your tongue, nice try budddddie.


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