Prong collar = end of problems (pretty much)

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Huitchi
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Postby Huitchi » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:54 am

As I've mentioned before, prong collars don't inflict any more pain than is caused by the dog scratching an itch. Wrap a prong collar around you bicep and give it a tug as you would to correct a dog, you'll see that there is minimal "discomfort" involved. I don't understand were people get this idea that prong collars inflict pain. On the contrary, you'll use less force than you would when using choke chain. I know Huitchi would strangle herself on a choke chain but after a few minutes on a prong collar she was a completely different dog.




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Postby MikeInTacoma » Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:33 am

Huitchi wrote:As I've mentioned before, prong collars don't inflict any more pain than is caused by the dog scratching an itch. Wrap a prong collar around you bicep and give it a tug as you would to correct a dog, you'll see that there is minimal "discomfort" involved. I don't understand were people get this idea that prong collars inflict pain. On the contrary, you'll use less force than you would when using choke chain. I know Huitchi would strangle herself on a choke chain but after a few minutes on a prong collar she was a completely different dog.

If prong collars do not cause pain, or at least acute discomfort, when they tighten around the dog's neck... then how / why do they work?

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Postby WackyJacki » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:17 am

wegobad wrote:
Huitchi wrote:As I've mentioned before, prong collars don't inflict any more pain than is caused by the dog scratching an itch. Wrap a prong collar around you bicep and give it a tug as you would to correct a dog, you'll see that there is minimal "discomfort" involved. I don't understand were people get this idea that prong collars inflict pain. On the contrary, you'll use less force than you would when using choke chain. I know Huitchi would strangle herself on a choke chain but after a few minutes on a prong collar she was a completely different dog.

If prong collars do not cause pain, or at least acute discomfort, when they tighten around the dog's neck... then how / why do they work?


To start, I'm not against prongs, and have used one with Stella in the past, and it did help with pulling. However, it intensified her dog aggression, and so I now use a Gentle Leader with good success.

I don't care what anyone says, prongs work because they cause at the very least discomfort, if not all out pain. Try putting it on your neck and giving it a tug (I did)... it hurts. Yes, their necks aren't as sensitive as ours, but nonetheless....

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Postby Roxers » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:11 am

buckaroo wrote:
tbluverjumper wrote:
buckaroo wrote:
Stormi wrote:
tbluverjumper wrote: To me we shouldn't have to rely on these things as they are meant as TOOLS. We shouldn't end up having to use them as a crutch and be dependent on them to walk our dogs right? Just curious!


You hit the nail on the head right there.

Yes. If you are using one, you are not done training until your dog follows commands reliably on a flat collar.


tbluverjumper wrote:in essence..it is the same thing as a Halter for a horse.

This seems to be a popular sentiment among people who really like the head collars. The thing is, dogs aren't horses. There are very few similarities between dogs and horses. In addition, halters do a very poor job of controlling a horse determined to do its own thing.


It's not necessarily just the mentality of people who like the head halters..I myself have worked with horses for the past 20 years. To me it is very similar to the case of the dog in the fact that if you actually finish training the animal as you said "you're not done training until your dog follows commands reliably on a flat collar"...well the halter to a horse is essentially a flat collar. You may add a stud chain or random other assortments if need be. Which some think are mean or abusive like some do about prong collars ect.
And in a sense...nothing is going to be effective if a 1200pnd animal is really determined to do it's own thing.
I for one find quite a few similarities between my dogs and my horses.
Many people are not fully trained in how to handle horses to get the use out of a halter that is possible.

I dunno, I just haven't seen any valid points on how if this collar is used correctly and trained with correctly..how it is harsher than the others? That's really my question I guess. :)

Because it gives the handler a much greater amount of control than any collar can.

When I said there is a vast difference between dogs and horses, I meant physiologically.


So more control = more harsh? That doesn't make any sense. A choke collar is very harsh (you are CHOKING the dog) yet it provides very little control.

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Postby Finnigan » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:18 am

Whether a chain collar is actually choking a dog depends on the person at the end of the leash, and his or her beleif systems. Its a teaching tool, and like any tool, its not about maintaining behavioral control...dogs have minds to teach. A leash and collar is to prevent the dog from wandering off somewhere. Unlike chain collars that should be loose, a prong is constantly tight and digging into the dog's neck.

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Postby Roxers » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:05 am

All I'm saying is, I think a choke collar is generally considered pretty harsh, and yet does not provide that much control, especially if you have a dog that is determined to pull. So saying that a head collar is harsh because it provides the most control doesn't make any sense.

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Postby Finnigan » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:12 am

Well, the ole heavy handed jerk, yank, pop system using a chain collar is harsh, but again, that is the person and his/her beleif systems at the other end of the leash. If one were to use it neutrally, and just jingle the links to signal something, that is totally different. But yes, alot of people don't use it correctly, and or not at all in a proper teaching sense, so a head collar would be a better option for pullers. I used a head halter on my Dobe when she was a pup, but the point was to get to her mind and actually teach her not to pull. She was weaned off it. If people can't walk their dogs without a neck/head collar that controls their behavior in a physical sense, then the dog needs more training.

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Postby Roxers » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:21 am

Finnigan wrote:If people can't walk their dogs without a neck/head collar that controls their behavior in a physical sense, then the dog needs more training.


Agreed, and as mentioned before, that's true of any training collar. I use a head collar with my dog because of her dog reactivity issues. I find it much easier to control her when we pass other dogs, and it's easier to get her to focus on me. She is getting better. One day, I hope to be able to walk her with just a flat collar.

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Postby Finnigan » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:32 am

Roxers wrote:Agreed, and as mentioned before, that's true of any training collar. I use a head collar with my dog because of her dog reactivity issues. I find it much easier to control her when we pass other dogs, and it's easier to get her to focus on me. She is getting better. One day, I hope to be able to walk her with just a flat collar.


Yes, IMO, a HH is a great tool for dog reactivity in terms of maintaining control, preventing compounding the behavior with certain neck collars, and for teaching alternate responses. Good luck!

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Postby Jazzy » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:07 pm

Deniselynn wrote:
Jazzy wrote:I used a prong briefly at the recommendation of my trainer when V. was around 7 or 8 months old. She was lunging at other dogs in class and she pulled on walks. Initally the prong worked great and I was very pleased with it.

Then she moved into another stage of adolescence and started pulling against the prong. Pulling full force to the point that her neck got red and she gave herself little welts. Which totally freaked me out...and that was the end of the prong.

I switched to a sense-ation harness and I swear by it. We work on loose lease walking and now 90% of the time she does fine. When she doesn't do fine; it's because she's hyped up about something ...which is usually a potential safety situation...like a particular she doesn't like dog or a cat. In those instances, when she is too far gone to hear a word I'm saying; I like that I can pull her away from the situation without fear of hurting her. With the harness, I can yank her off all 4 feet if necessary and swing her out of harm's way :))


Would the sense-ation harness be appropriate for a reactive dog?


Denise, I was hoping someone else would answer as my only experience is with Veronica.

However I will add this. Tonight we went to agility; and since the sense-ation harness is rather restricting with regard to jumps - I decided to use just a flat 1.5 inch leather collar.

Well Veronica was being a butt head, lunging after the other dogs. Not in a growly "I wanna eat ya" sort of way; but in a "Wheee! Look at you! Look at me! lets run around like idiots!!" sort of way.

I noticed that for me, it is much easier to manage her with the harness. With the flat collar, she could actually pull me, and I had to put some real strength into it; sort of put your back and legs into it. With the harness...I can manage her usually with 1 hand without a major effort - even when she is in "butt head" mode.

So...there it is, for what it's worth. It seems like the harness with the front ring really throws off her center of gravity...which interfers with the force of her pulling.

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Postby tbluverjumper » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:26 pm

I find just about all collars are useful if used correctly..as tools.

I'm not sure I believe that prong collars don't at least cause some discomfort. I've seen on several occasions a friend of mine have problems with her dog. She has a white APBT, who is a moderate puller, but is working on it. She walks well in a prong but still even just from wearing the prong she usually has red marks on her neck around the collar.
I'm not saying this is just a "white dog" thing it's just easier to see her irritated skin because of the pigment.

I wonder sometimes if people with harder to handle dogs, sometimes unintentionally put the dogs comfort out of their mind..for the fact that they "must get control" and when they don't know how or are on their last leg and have no more idea's...i'm not saying this accusingly by the way. I've certainly had my moments.
I know life is of course not all sugar and spice and sometimes we all need a little butt kicking..but a lot of times I feel people are to quick to jump to these harsher collars as a quick fix.

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Postby buckaroo » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:54 pm

Roxers wrote:
buckaroo wrote:
tbluverjumper wrote:
buckaroo wrote:
Stormi wrote:
tbluverjumper wrote: To me we shouldn't have to rely on these things as they are meant as TOOLS. We shouldn't end up having to use them as a crutch and be dependent on them to walk our dogs right? Just curious!


You hit the nail on the head right there.

Yes. If you are using one, you are not done training until your dog follows commands reliably on a flat collar.


tbluverjumper wrote:in essence..it is the same thing as a Halter for a horse.

This seems to be a popular sentiment among people who really like the head collars. The thing is, dogs aren't horses. There are very few similarities between dogs and horses. In addition, halters do a very poor job of controlling a horse determined to do its own thing.


It's not necessarily just the mentality of people who like the head halters..I myself have worked with horses for the past 20 years. To me it is very similar to the case of the dog in the fact that if you actually finish training the animal as you said "you're not done training until your dog follows commands reliably on a flat collar"...well the halter to a horse is essentially a flat collar. You may add a stud chain or random other assortments if need be. Which some think are mean or abusive like some do about prong collars ect.
And in a sense...nothing is going to be effective if a 1200pnd animal is really determined to do it's own thing.
I for one find quite a few similarities between my dogs and my horses.
Many people are not fully trained in how to handle horses to get the use out of a halter that is possible.

I dunno, I just haven't seen any valid points on how if this collar is used correctly and trained with correctly..how it is harsher than the others? That's really my question I guess. :)

Because it gives the handler a much greater amount of control than any collar can.

When I said there is a vast difference between dogs and horses, I meant physiologically.


So more control = more harsh? That doesn't make any sense. A choke collar is very harsh (you are CHOKING the dog) yet it provides very little control.

If you're using it right, you shouldn't actually be choking the dog. Of course any tool can be used incorrectly and made more severe than it is intended.

Roxers wrote:Agreed, and as mentioned before, that's true of any training collar. I use a head collar with my dog because of her dog reactivity issues. I find it much easier to control her when we pass other dogs, and it's easier to get her to focus on me. She is getting better. One day, I hope to be able to walk her with just a flat collar.

Exactly. You have a far greater amount of control with the head collar which is why you use it. She isn't able to ignore your commands as easily on the head collar versus something less severe like a prong or a choke.

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Postby MikeInTacoma » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:57 am

I just remembered -- when I lived in Chicago, I used to know an unneutered male 100-lb. Malamute, who was rather stubborn and impulsive. The lady who owned him couldn't have weighed more than about 125 lbs. He wore a prong collar, which was undoubtedly a good idea. I sincerely doubt that he would have noticed anything less severe. Without the prongs, I'm sure he would have merrily rampaged through the Near Northside, dragging her through traffic and over fences, slaying cats and overturning baby carriages.

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Postby Jazzy » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:31 am

wegobad wrote:I just remembered -- when I lived in Chicago, I used to know an unneutered male 100-lb. Malamute, who was rather stubborn and impulsive. The lady who owned him couldn't have weighed more than about 125 lbs. He wore a prong collar, which was undoubtedly a good idea. I sincerely doubt that he would have noticed anything less severe. Without the prongs, I'm sure he would have merrily rampaged through the Near Northside, dragging her through traffic and over fences, slaying cats and overturning baby carriages.


I'm just curious...I'm really not trying to endorse the product.

Does anyone else have any experience with the sense-ation harness? Maybe it wouldn't work at all well in the above example. Maybe it only works as well as it does for me because V. isn't really that much of a puller? I'm curious because I don't have anything with which to make a comparison.

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Postby WackyJacki » Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:17 am

I don't have experience with that particular brand, but I use the GL "no pull" front clip harness for my little Boston and it stops her pulling completely. Not that her little 18lbs is hard to control lol but it's annoying to have her pull.

I tried it with my pit..... ummmm no... didn't help much lol. Too strong and determined. I now use a regular GL head collar as a tool (along with obedience training, of course), and find that to be my best bet ;)


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