OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

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ilovetyson
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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby ilovetyson » Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:46 pm

I havn't read this thread all the way through.. But, I have tried a bark Collar on a previous foster 1 time in crate.. And I had never used one before.. Ever. And I don't think I ever will again. I took videos of her with it on..and watching them makes my skin curl. :-/ Now, I am sure for the right dog.. it may be ok.. But, I can't do it to my dogs or fosters again. I wont.
Not sure if the Bark collars are same as a E collar.. But.. I wont touch a e-collar either. Lol So..

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby randomroads » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:25 pm

Did you just put the collar on her, stick her in the crate, and leave? Most bark collars, to be used properly, should be used in conjunction with training. Encouraging the dog to be quiet, praising and treating, and then allowing the dog to realize it's own mistakes without you having any hand in it. I've only seen dogs freak the F out if they were just thrust into a situation with no understanding of it.

Bark collars can and do save lives. I'm all for them, when used correctly. I'm still on the fence about e-collars, although my dad uses them for some of the more stubborn dogs that would kill themselves if not corrected before an accident happens. I suppose e-collars, when used for certain things, can save lives, too.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby lilangel » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:12 pm

:aha: Guns can save lives too but we don't teach kids how to read by pistol whipping them or shooting them in the leg when they have trouble do we? Or maybe we should. Might be better to force kids to read so they don't drop out of school because they feel inadequate and join gangs. 8(

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Brianna&Bubba. » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:27 pm

I believe that a shock collar is somewhat cruel.
I believe bark collars are VERY cruel.
To me, if you dont want a barking dog, dont get a dog..

Anyways, the only experience I have with shock collars, a friend of mine has a rednose female. When the family bought a brand new expensive couch, they dont allow Baby(the dog) to EVER get on the couch, never once. But while they are out, Baby likes to get crazy and jump ALL over the couch, and i mean crazy ! like if they left laundry on the couch, its EVERWERE. So everytime when NO ONE is home the put a shock collar on her, they put a disk under the couch cushion and everytime Baby goes near the couch, she would get shocked. If she gets to close, it beeps first, and shes aware that means get away before she gets shocked. Baby knows when everyone is home that she is able to sit at everyones feet when the familys relaxing.

But with other people that use shock collars, i believe people need to train with positivity not punishment as much as possible.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Megan » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:34 pm

I think with almost anything(prong collars, even flat collars, choke collars, crating, etc) they can be extremely bad.

I don't think anyone should be able to walk into a store, purchase a collar and shock the crap out of their dog. I think you should HAVE to use them under the training of a professional trainer, and it would be even better if they had a specific "class" that the trainers have to take in order to 'train' someone in it.


I think if used properly as a teaching tool, and not always used or used for a long time they can be beneficial to certain dogs. I also think it depends on the dog, not all dogs are going to be ok with this type of training, but not all dogs will be ruined by it either.

It's a subject that is going to lead to much debate. Some people will swear by them, others will find them cruel and some will be in the middle. In short I think it's up to the owner to make a judgment call, and in certain circumstances is ok to use. I don't think its something just anyone should use, or something people should rely on full time or for the duration of the dogs life... It should be used as a training/teaching tool, and eventually weaned away from.

I guess on the bark collar line.. I'd rather see a dog (trained) with a bark collar vs a dog who had his vocal cords cut.

I guess I sit on the fence with this one. Sometimes I feel it would be ok, other times not. It depends on the dog, the handler, and the person they are training with.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby TahsSunny » Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:57 am

Can't you get different type's of bark collars?.

I've heard you can get scented bark collars (where the dog is sprayed with something), i was going to get one for Sunny since awhile back he ust to bark quite a lot at night but thankfully he stopped so now I don't need one. I went out there every time he barked and he never learnt to stop.. I think the only reason he stopped cause the cat that hung around isn't here now. I don't mind the barking here and there but the way he was doing it; god it pissed me off.

What do you guys think of scented collars?.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby white0nr1ce » Tue May 17, 2011 9:20 am

I put Apollo in a doggy daycare that trained during the day while I was at work... did much research, and had good reviews. The owner seemed very knowledgable and relatively open to my dogs needs as I described them. The training lasted five weeks of me dropping him off in the morning and picking him up on the way home from work 5 days a week. I wanted him mainly to have manners and signed him up for an intermediate class that was all on leash obedience with off leash recall... the day I was to come in and watch the DVD on his training they had used a prong collar and an e-collar... when I had previously asked if they had other methods other than the prong they said they started with a basic such as a nylon slip lead and moved up for different dogs needs and would use the prong as worst case. I had no idea to ask about the ecollar because it was not on display with the prongs in their storefront. I asked daily how he was doing and it always seemed as if he had taken right to training and none of the trainers or employees had an issue... on the last day, his "graduation" I came in to get his certificate which I could take to the Norfolk SPCA to get an off leash license for him (which I still probably won't use, no matter how well trained he is if anything were to happen I could never forgive myself if he was blamed... not to mention the unpredictability of other dogs and even humans) I can't deny that the collars they used were effective... but I am not sure how I feel about the fact that it was used on him. Perhaps there is a time and a place, at the beach or in the yard, and if they take off or head for traffic they said the shock collar would hurt him a lot less than the car... but I feel as a responsible pet owner, that is why you keep them on the leash at all times you must maintain control... but I did sign him up for off leash recall... I did not know at what cost, though. I find out after his stay that the owner during his stay was charged with animal something... not cruelty or neglect, but the case happened after I did my research but were for a time before I signed my pup up... but some animals did not have water readily available and his defense was that they were being washed or refilled at the time of the inspection. I found out all of the bad news after his last day, when I had previously researched apparently there was a case pending but was not found on my internet searches of local dog training facilities. I'm not sure how I feel about all of this now, but the reason I dumped the big $$$ into said school was because a lot of places would not take Apollo because he was a pit bull, and once he was trained through them, they would board him for life (I have family all over the country, and am much overdue for visits) and had a life time guaruntee on his obedience... free followups if any issues occur, and if they can't be resolved your money back... I wanted to get him up trained up to good citizen and continue to board him there, and now I'm not sure how I feel about leaving him there anymore. Am I being oversensitive to how he was trained, is that what is to be expected of these facilities?

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby mommy2kane » Tue May 17, 2011 9:26 am

As an e-collar user, I'd be HOT if someone trained my dog with methods that I wasn't made aware of upfront. Then again, I'm not fond of "doggy daycare" for this breed and I wouldn't allow people at a doggy daycare to "train" my dog.

As your dog's owner, you have to have input on what is done with your dog.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby white0nr1ce » Tue May 17, 2011 10:42 am

mommy2kane wrote:As an e-collar user, I'd be HOT if someone trained my dog with methods that I wasn't made aware of upfront. Then again, I'm not fond of "doggy daycare" for this breed and I wouldn't allow people at a doggy daycare to "train" my dog.

As your dog's owner, you have to have input on what is done with your dog.


It seems like the whole time I talked to the owner about their methods he would talk to me about methods I was cool with then say "not one method works with every dog" but now I'm starting to realize I should have been way more direct, and not assumed that the methods were all what was said since he sort of repeated himself on certain things almost like giving a disclaimer.. They have professional trainers on site and it's not strictly a doggy daycare... but with the kids and softball practice I guess it was easier because the place is only a block from my work. :/ Just out of curiosity, as an e-collar user in what instances do you use it and when do you not. I just didn't think it was necessary in the facility because the perimeter was fenced in or large indoor rooms... My thoughts on the time and place would be if you were say out at the beach or outside in your own yard and your dog goes against his training and then runs... but I don't see where they would have had that situation in their facility is what gets me... since it was sort of danced around that were using it until his last day there.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby mommy2kane » Tue May 17, 2011 11:04 am

My dog was introduced to an e-collar under the direction of a trainer. It's used for various things, but mostly obedience. That said, training methods and/or corrections are different for every dog and every situation. Kane is working towards some obedience and tracking titles in Schutzhund, at the moment.

But using an e-collar at a doggy daycare setting? I can't imagine WHY that would be necessary. Honestly, I'd pull the dog unless I was *certain* they'd never do anything without telling me again.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby white0nr1ce » Wed May 18, 2011 1:32 pm

Honestly, I'd pull the dog unless I was *certain* they'd never do anything without telling me again.


That's kind of my issue. I went for a more expensive place so his training would be guarunteed or my money back. I was having trouble finding boarding for a pit bull for a few three day weekends I'll have to take this summer. I had him get his training there (for a hefty price tag) wanting to take him back for the UKC Good Citizen Prep and they gaurunteed they would board him for life once he completed their training. I found out about the e-collar and other issues on his graduation day.
I am debating even going back since it seemed like their methods were sort of danced around whenever I asked. At the same time I have not even discussed any of this with them, yet. I feel as if the e-collar should have been explained to me and out in the open with the questions I was asking, but I had an otherwise normal experience with the training. I don't know if I am over reacting... I am not one to question someone's integrity without a good reason, and aside from this issue, it was convenient, the owner was very knowledgable, and my dog is very very socialized and well mannered. Dumping all of that money into a guaruntee to a place I am now sketch about sucks, but I almost feel guilty for not really having the best idea of what was going on or exactly what I had signed my dog up for.
Now that I know, I am not sure if it is worth taking him back, as in could I trust them not to use the e-collar if I requested? Or would I be stupid to bring him back if I am not 100% sure of the place anyhow? :oops:

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby mommy2kane » Wed May 18, 2011 2:14 pm

My honest opinion, I probably wouldn't go back. They went behind your back. BUT, you need to learn from this. You need to ask questions, make sure you know what's going on with your dog. But that's the thing about sending a dog off for training. I prefer to be there, do the training, understand what's going on.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby white0nr1ce » Wed May 18, 2011 3:25 pm

I definitely learned a lot from the situation. It seems like I got the answers I wanted to hear from the questions I asked... and then it was something completely different that was presented once I was on my way out the door. That's why I'll definitely ignore the convenience aspect next time around and be there for the entire process. To not veer too far off topic... as far as the e-collar goes... I do believe there is a time and a place, but I personally am not comfortable putting my dog in an off leash in public situation (which is the time and place I feel is appropriate)- and not because he is not trained! I know for a fact he will stay by my side and come when called - but other people and dogs are unpredictable, and no matter how well trained he is, he would be "the pit bull with no leash" if any situation ever occured.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Red » Wed May 18, 2011 6:19 pm

Brianna&Bubba. wrote:I believe bark collars are VERY cruel.


They can be very unfair. Too many people who have a barking dog think that a bark collar is the best tool ever but they don't stop and think about the possible consequences of using one, nor evaluate the situation for a specific dog.The best collars on the market now operate to set off electric stimulation with vocal cords vibration, which is far better than the products of the past, which would detect the barking of other dogs or activate when the dog hit something. For a vocal dog that is a problem, and it is not uncommon for a dog to be electrically stimulated even when not barking.It can happen when a dog vocalizes, for example, upon the owner return at home. The dog is verbally communicating greetings (not barking, "roooing" is detected too) and he/she gets electrically stimulated for it. Coughing....yes, that is detected too.Sure the dog will learn that using vocalization to greet the owner (or coughing) causes positive punishment but how fair is that? Anything the dog does as far as vocalizing is detected and I wish that people would understand that.

White0nr1ce, never allow anyone to train your dog "out of sight". There are trainers who are scumbags and some of them are taken in high consideration because they have a couple of titles, reviews and what not, but when you look in to the reality of what they are doing.....it is sad and worth of an ass kicking. It is important that you learn to work with your dog, it serves no purpose for someone else to do it, since you are the one who lives with the dog for most of the time.

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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Postby Stormi » Wed May 18, 2011 6:40 pm

Red wrote:White0nr1ce, never allow anyone to train your dog "out of sight". There are trainers who are scumbags and some of them are taken in high consideration because they have a couple of titles, reviews and what not, but when you look in to the reality of what they are doing.....it is sad and worth of an ass kicking. It is important that you learn to work with your dog, it serves no purpose for someone else to do it, since you are the one who lives with the dog for most of the time.


And to add to that, never trust anyone who tells you a dog can be trained or have their behavior modified by a guaranteed date. Dogs are living, breathing creatures, not robots. Behavior cannot be stamped with a guarantee, and should not be done away from the owner as the owner is the one who needs the knowledge to continue the training. "Guaranteed" translates to "will use whatever method and force necessary", and I very rarely come across someone who does board and train and doesn't resort to cruel and harsh methods for that "quick fix" appearance.


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