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Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:49 am
by arlene2010
Celesteandthebullies wrote:I have nothing against Negative punishment discipline.Removing something the dog wants.

Dominance is defined by the ability to control or regulate access to resources. And correcting aggression? How does that help when you should be trying to change the emotional reaction to the stimulus. If they receive a correction each time that can only add to the negative association and the aggression is simply suppressed, the anxiety is still there.
Instead of getting a dog that displays many warning signs, you can get a dog that goes straight to a bite.

http://petbehaviorsolutions.blogspot.co ... ining.html



I also wish the term "Alpha" would crawl under a rock because it is so incorrectly used.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU


i get what your saying, i guess all scientist have spent parts of their lives trying to understand what it means to be the "top dog" with a group of dogs. scientists also say there is no god, and religion is fake. but well over half the world believe and are blessed by god, and their prayers are answered. so yea if your going off of that, its not alpha. but more of a "pecking order" that i also found to include for others. it ALL means the same thing. just how there are different words in the dictionary that mean the same thing.


and i honestly don't know if e-collars would work on aggression, because when i had kyzer, i didn't try to find deeper meaning for his aggression, i simply took precautions and slapped a muzzle on him. i said i WISHED i had one when i had him, because it would of been a last resort, i was very positive with him, and didn't believe in that type of correction.i tried everything. it might of not worked it might have, who knows. like the others said, it depends on if it's fear or dominance based.

why the dog is attacking is different from it trying to control the situation.it lunging, and yanking you around, says im gonna do this because of my reason, and that reason comes before anything you say.then that dog is very well dominating you, as defined, controlling the situation to get what it wants. yes there is a reason why he's doing it. but if the dominant one says no it means no, and there's nothing more to it. just my outlook on it. i'm not obligating you to be offended, because of the way you handle things.

no hard feelings i love reading about dakota, and seeing him enjoy his sport to the fullest.
i just think the whole scientific thing is over rated. dogs are so simple....why try complicating it with deeper meanings.
and a quick shock is simple too. it doesn't analyze the dog and then shock. i agree you should understand appropriate times to use it, like with any and all other methods.



"Here's food for thought: "dominance" doesn't transcend species."
no it doesn't, no one ever said that, but not all species are pack animals that have rank or control over the others, which is what we are talking about, some are solitary, some only live in pairs. a business is ran by rank or one person coming before the rest. a family is also a good example. you tell your son hey no means no, then he's gonna listen, the only difference is, humans have very complex brains, and can deliberately premeditate something defiant. dogs....cannot. again they are very simple.

Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:55 am
by Celesteandthebullies
I don't see how Dakota comes in as I have worked with him a long time and I can now walk him through a crowded area without a problem.

And no, a dog barking lunging, pulling, isn't dominating you.
Contrary to popular belief, aggressive dogs are NOT trying to assert their dominance over their canine or human “pack”, according to research published by academics at the University of Bristol’s Department of Clinical Veterinary Sciences in the Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 112711.htm

Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:08 am
by arlene2010
Celesteandthebullies wrote:I don't see how Dakota comes in as I have worked with him a long time and I can now walk him through a crowded area without a problem.

And no, a dog barking lunging, pulling, isn't dominating you.
Contrary to popular belief, aggressive dogs are NOT trying to assert their dominance over their canine or human “pack”, according to research published by academics at the University of Bristol’s Department of Clinical Veterinary Sciences in the Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 112711.htm


it wasn't a pun towards the way you handle him.dakota is a great dog. it was just a reminder that i don't want tension on this site with you because of our different opinions.

so they are saying, when a dog does that. when you give them a command to ignore that, or stop that. they aren't putting you second by ignoring your command that they very well know they heard the first time? i don't buy it. i think it's all about the money really, to cause people to run to trainers and pay out ass loads of money to correct it.why do scientists and doctors say a certain pill will cure whatever you have, and then a year later have 12 chronic side effects? so you'll come back to spend money on the next best thing they have out there. sure the simple act of being aggressive isn't, but the fact that a leash is for control, a tool for humans when establishing dominance. when a dog knows thats what it's for and literally blowing off your commands and guiding of that leash. that's where it comes in.

Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:23 am
by Red
arlene2010 wrote: they aren't putting you second by ignoring your command that they very well know they heard the first time? i don't buy it. i think it's all about the money really, to cause people to run to trainers and pay out ass loads of money to correct it.why do scientists and doctors say a certain pill will cure whatever you have, and then a year later have 12 chronic side effects? so you'll come back to spend money on the next best thing they have out there. sure the simple act of being aggressive isn't, but the fact that a leash is for control, a tool for humans when establishing dominance. when a dog knows thats what it's for and literally blowing off your commands and guiding of that leash. that's where it comes in.


Good.Lord. You are not making much sense, please read around the forum for some information.

Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:31 am
by Celesteandthebullies
If your dog actually knows the command, and still reacts then he is over his threshold. Space needs to be made. Dogs aren't going to follow an authorize figure like a robot. I'm sure someone could explain it better than I.

And a friendly debate only create negative relationships if one lets it. :) I For one enjoy debating and only look down upon the person if they start lashing out immaturely.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beh ... -not-apply

Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:01 am
by arlene2010
Red wrote:
arlene2010 wrote: they aren't putting you second by ignoring your command that they very well know they heard the first time? i don't buy it. i think it's all about the money really, to cause people to run to trainers and pay out ass loads of money to correct it.why do scientists and doctors say a certain pill will cure whatever you have, and then a year later have 12 chronic side effects? so you'll come back to spend money on the next best thing they have out there. sure the simple act of being aggressive isn't, but the fact that a leash is for control, a tool for humans when establishing dominance. when a dog knows thats what it's for and literally blowing off your commands and guiding of that leash. that's where it comes in.


Good.Lord. You are not making much sense, please read around the forum for some information.


how is that not making sense? it's telling both sides. the worldly [human side] which is mainly for money, making money, and as much money as they can no matter what bullshizzle they have to tell. and the then world of animal side. that relies on raw nature, and instincts to get what it wants and needs no matter what. if the ears perk when you give a cammand and the dog deosn't follow threw it IS ignoring you. regardless of the threshold BS, you are being ignored and thats that. and too many owners tolerate it, and wonder why it takes about a year to correct a behavior. roflmao but i will take a look at some other things on here, because theres no such thing as too much knowledge.

what's not making sense is for someone to put 2 cents into a convo that adds nothing to the value of it. or is even a questionable or doubt-able statement to debate with.

Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:53 am
by AllisonPitbullLvr
Red wrote:
arlene2010 wrote: they aren't putting you second by ignoring your command that they very well know they heard the first time? i don't buy it. i think it's all about the money really, to cause people to run to trainers and pay out ass loads of money to correct it.why do scientists and doctors say a certain pill will cure whatever you have, and then a year later have 12 chronic side effects? so you'll come back to spend money on the next best thing they have out there. sure the simple act of being aggressive isn't, but the fact that a leash is for control, a tool for humans when establishing dominance. when a dog knows thats what it's for and literally blowing off your commands and guiding of that leash. that's where it comes in.


Good.Lord. You are not making much sense, please read around the forum for some information.


x2. Red, I'm beginning to feel your frustration. Some days it feels overwhelming doesn't it?

OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:07 am
by Stormi
arlene2010 wrote: i think it's all about the money really...


Ha! Yes, because we trainer folk that spend thousands of dollars going to animal science and behavior institutions to get our education (note that of which Mr Millan has absolutely none) are tootally rolling in the dough.

Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:09 am
by Red
Stormi wrote:
arlene2010 wrote: i think it's all about the money really...


Ha! Yes, because we trainer folk that spend thousands of dollars going to animal science and behavior institutions to get our education (note that of which Mr Millan has absolutely none) are tootally rolling in the dough.


I was going to comment a bit on that, but I am just walking out the door to go buy my new Ferrari. Dang this business rocks.

Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:43 am
by Stormi
Arlene - since you mention you are still learning, here's a few links for you to check out and read. They're all written by people with PhD's in animal behavior.

http://www.kathysdao.com/articles/Forge ... _Pack.html
http://www.4pawsu.com/pmdominance.htm
http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/
http://companionanimalsolutions.com/blo ... to-owners/

There are also many qualified behavior consultants out there with articles and books on the topic. I'll gladly supply you with a list of those if you are interested.

Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:35 pm
by lilangel
Hows about we just let pictures speak their thousands of words, shall we?

I was forwarded these yesterday by two separate pan pals from a different forum. Pix are a graphic reminder of what an electronic bark collar can do in the hands of "experienced" dog people. I know it is some known breeder.

These are the probably the kinds of people who like to advertise their "lifetime of experience" breeding and working with dogs using "all the tools" of the trade. I can't say for sure because I do not know who did this, yet. I'd put money on it though.

I think the dog was being boarded at his breeders or some such while the owner was away. This is how he got his dog back. Not sure about all the details but the pictures are more than enough to illustrate the physical ramifications of morons using e-collars. Obviously this collar was left on for an inappropriate length of time and was probably a bit snug. It wouldn't have to be terribly tight for this to happen since there are metal posts that are designed to push against the dog's skin. This is by no means an isolated incident and not as bad as it gets. Poor dog.

Image

Image

Image

Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:41 pm
by mommy2kane
That's not to say that EVERYone who ever puts a bark collar or e-collar on their dog is going to end up with nasty wounds like that. I sure haven't ever seen that -- haven't experienced it with my own dogs -- haven't seen it with various dogs who are trained with e-collars. Obviously that was a VERY irresponsible party who had absolutely no idea what he/she was doing.

Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:15 pm
by lilangel
mommy2kane wrote:That's not to say that EVERYone who ever puts a bark collar or e-collar on their dog is going to end up with nasty wounds like that. I sure haven't ever seen that -- haven't experienced it with my own dogs -- haven't seen it with various dogs who are trained with e-collars. Obviously that was a VERY irresponsible party who had absolutely no idea what he/she was doing.


Yes, I never said or implied that this happens every time someone uses an e-collar. Clearly this is the result of inappropriate use of the collar but it is still a direct result of an experienced person misusing a tool. If someone that uses an e-collar every day can allow this to happen that does not leave me with warm and fuzzy feelings for JQP buying any kind of e-collar from Drs. Foster Smith, Jeffers, EliteK9 or Petsmart and getting giddy with the new remote control dog. This is a tool that can very easily be misused, right out of the box, even by "professional" trainers.

This is just a striking example of the physical damage that may result. Let's not even get into the psychological damage that dogs can go though with one single mistimed correction or one that is set too high.

Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:24 pm
by mommy2kane
lilangel wrote:
mommy2kane wrote:That's not to say that EVERYone who ever puts a bark collar or e-collar on their dog is going to end up with nasty wounds like that. I sure haven't ever seen that -- haven't experienced it with my own dogs -- haven't seen it with various dogs who are trained with e-collars. Obviously that was a VERY irresponsible party who had absolutely no idea what he/she was doing.


Yes, I never said or implied that this happens every time someone uses an e-collar. Clearly this is the result of inappropriate use of the collar but it is still a direct result of an experienced person misusing a tool. If someone that uses an e-collar every day can allow this to happen that does not leave me with warm and fuzzy feelings for JQP buying any kind of e-collar from Drs. Foster Smith, Jeffers, EliteK9 or Petsmart and getting giddy with the new remote control dog. This is a tool that can very easily be misused, right out of the box, even by "professional" trainers.

This is just a striking example of the physical damage that may result. Let's not even get into the psychological damage that dogs can go though with one single mistimed correction or one that is set too high.


I don't disagree with the above. I try to stay out of these debates because of the high emotions involved -- but I also try to keep it civil! lol I can't imagine someone not realizing that damage. Thing is, even for those who keep bark collars on for long periods of time (to each it's own), the collar should be moved around. Not kept DUG into one place. But I'm sure it happens when people don't pay attention/care/whatever. But I don't personally like the fact that e-collars are so readily accessible. I think if someone wants to use one, they need guidance.

And it still goes back to "there's a method for every dog." I don't like people using e-collars or corrective methods on fearful dogs. It's just not needed. But again, not really trying to debate the matter. And while we may have our differences in training, I pretty much agree with most of what you stated above -- especially these collars at Petsmart. Yikes.

Re: OFFICIAL e-collar debate thread

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:49 pm
by TahsSunny
mommy2kane wrote:
lilangel wrote:
mommy2kane wrote:That's not to say that EVERYone who ever puts a bark collar or e-collar on their dog is going to end up with nasty wounds like that. I sure haven't ever seen that -- haven't experienced it with my own dogs -- haven't seen it with various dogs who are trained with e-collars. Obviously that was a VERY irresponsible party who had absolutely no idea what he/she was doing.


Yes, I never said or implied that this happens every time someone uses an e-collar. Clearly this is the result of inappropriate use of the collar but it is still a direct result of an experienced person misusing a tool. If someone that uses an e-collar every day can allow this to happen that does not leave me with warm and fuzzy feelings for JQP buying any kind of e-collar from Drs. Foster Smith, Jeffers, EliteK9 or Petsmart and getting giddy with the new remote control dog. This is a tool that can very easily be misused, right out of the box, even by "professional" trainers.

This is just a striking example of the physical damage that may result. Let's not even get into the psychological damage that dogs can go though with one single mistimed correction or one that is set too high.


I don't disagree with the above. I try to stay out of these debates because of the high emotions involved -- but I also try to keep it civil! lol I can't imagine someone not realizing that damage. Thing is, even for those who keep bark collars on for long periods of time (to each it's own), the collar should be moved around. Not kept DUG into one place. But I'm sure it happens when people don't pay attention/care/whatever. But I don't personally like the fact that e-collars are so readily accessible. I think if someone wants to use one, they need guidance.

And it still goes back to "there's a method for every dog." I don't like people using e-collars or corrective methods on fearful dogs. It's just not needed. But again, not really trying to debate the matter. And while we may have our differences in training, I pretty much agree with most of what you stated above -- especially these collars at Petsmart. Yikes.


Can I ask, why wouldn't you put one on a fearful dog?. Would that just make them become more fearful in time?.