Sit Means Sit Method

Tricks, obedience, behavior, and more.
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Nanci
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Sit Means Sit Method

Postby Nanci » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:38 pm

Some friends of mine have had this method of training recommended to them by the local natural dogfood store. My first instinct was I didn't like the sound of it. Looking at the website http://www.sitmeanssit.com/dog-training/# I still don't like the sound of it. Has anyone here had experience with this?? (Their dog is a lab pup, about a year old). If anyone has had a positive experience with this (or better yet, can recommend a good obedience trainer in Gainesville Florida) I'd sure like to hear about it.

Thanks for any input!

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Stormi
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Re: Sit Means Sit Method

Postby Stormi » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:50 pm

If you want your dog to be petrified of you and completely emotionally shut down, then their methods will accomplish exactly that. If you want a good relationship based on trust with your dog, I'd steer faaar far away from them, and go with someone who actually is a credentialed trainer who won't resort to electrocuting your dog.

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Adrianne
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Re: Sit Means Sit Method

Postby Adrianne » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:53 pm

Sit means sit is a very dangerous program.

For more information you're welcome to PM me. I know Fred on a personal level and am surrounded by SMS trainers as Las Vegas is their home base.

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MissKitty
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Re: Sit Means Sit Method

Postby MissKitty » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:58 pm

I have not experienced the training myself but have met dogs they have trained. They are beyond f-ed up, like I have never seen dogs this messed up.

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tiva
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Re: Sit Means Sit Method

Postby tiva » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:21 pm

But other than all that, they're great...

Seriously, I haven't heard anything good about SMS.

Personally, I'm not opposed to modern e-collar training for certain issues such as off-leash work for hunting, farm, or field dogs. Modern e-collar work means very low stim, building a foundation at low distraction levels, staying under threshold, before introducing larger distractions, Robin McFarlane at That's My Dog is a well-known modern e-collar trainer. (I've had bad experiences with her, but most people who have worked with her have good things to say).

However, Sit Means Sit isn't modern e-collar training. It's old fashioned stuff: set the dogs up to fail, then shock them into submission when they make an honest mistake. Blech.

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Red
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Re: Sit Means Sit Method

Postby Red » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:51 pm

Plenty to say about the methods used, after seeing some of them in action and some of their dogs.They take every chance they get to promote aversion training here in South CA. Electric collar on the groin area, on 127 high power and continuous....yeah, that's the real deal when it comes to training.
Nanci, I will send you the contact info of someone in a moment.

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chako
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Re: Sit Means Sit Method

Postby chako » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:04 pm

I've met Fred in person, spent an entire day with him watching his methods. I prefer a different style.

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Re: Sit Means Sit Method

Postby TahsSunny » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:12 am

lectric collar on the groin area, on 127 high power and continuous....


What the hell... ><

Adrianne, since you know Fred on a personal level, maybe you could answer this or if some one knows the answer?.

Why can't these people actually spend time training there dogs without electric collars!?. What, did they do this type of training since the dog was a puppy or once the dog was a few months/years old?. Why the heck don't they want to try something else then electrocuting there dogs?.

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Re: Sit Means Sit Method

Postby TahsSunny » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:33 am

Also, how are these dogs screwed up with this training?. How do they act differently from dogs trained without shock collars?.

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Re: Sit Means Sit Method

Postby mommy2kane » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:07 am

I, personally, use e-collars -- yet I still recommend you stay far, far away from Sit Means Sit. They're obnoxious. If the dogs does wrong, stim. If the dog does right, stim. If you don't know, stim. Definitely not a good company!

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Nanci
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Re: Sit Means Sit Method

Postby Nanci » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:27 am

Thanks for all the input! I've passed it on.

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Adrianne
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Re: Sit Means Sit Method

Postby Adrianne » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:28 pm

TahsSunny wrote:
lectric collar on the groin area, on 127 high power and continuous....


What the hell... ><

Adrianne, since you know Fred on a personal level, maybe you could answer this or if some one knows the answer?.

Why can't these people actually spend time training there dogs without electric collars!?. What, did they do this type of training since the dog was a puppy or once the dog was a few months/years old?. Why the heck don't they want to try something else then electrocuting there dogs?.



Often the groin collar is used for two things, one to signify and exaggerate movement (right, left) or most commonly when the dog is desensitized at the neck (dogs have relatively little nerves in the neck compared to us) and you're getting a point across.

The founders been using groin collars for years and years as far as I know. They're well known for taking hard dogs and pushing them over their limit and in the sporting community frowned upon for supposedly ruining perfectly good dogs.

I will say one thing, I do believe their training has actually saved a lot of dogs from being put down, rehomed, or neglected. On the other hand their training has destroyed many dogs leaving nothing but a shell of insanity and fear.

For this reason they're mostly all eventually if not immediately requested to not participate in most every training and sporting club that I have checked out or been associated with here in Las Vegas.

I am careful with my words as I do still train along side and attempt to maintain good relations with the owners due to politics and good sportsman levels in sporting events. I also do not genuinely think many of the SMS trainers are bad people but they're not what I consider good dog trainers.

Having butted heads on varying levels with the training more than a few times I can say their reasoning is the shock is not mean, it is a +P in operant conditioning and the reward is the owner itself, possibly a treat, possibly a tug, but more often than not the removal of the stimuli. Which begs the question how a stimuli (shock) can be both a reward and a punishment.

Another issue is the proofing. The common understanding is these dogs for the most part is their inability or desire to function without the collar on.

Lastly, they start puppies with the collar as soon as they wean.

Meh, I am not opposed to collar use and I have seen so much of SMS over the years here I can say they are a dangerous tool.

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Mya&theSiebenDackels
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Re: Sit Means Sit Method

Postby Mya&theSiebenDackels » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:38 pm

I feel really sorry for the poor deaf dogs Sit means Sit trains.

Yes. Your friend needs to stay away from Sit means Sit training. Hopefully, Red can recommend them someone in their area that uses more humane methods of training. :)

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Stormi
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Re: Sit Means Sit Method

Postby Stormi » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:42 pm

TahsSunny wrote:Also, how are these dogs screwed up with this training?. How do they act differently from dogs trained without shock collars?.


Along with causing this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

stiff e-collar training such as that used by this organization leads to dogs who simply don't behave (the definition of behavior here being any action a dog does) at all because all normal dog behaviors have all been shocked out of them. As with any punishment-based training, the dog is given no direction as what TO do, only what not to do, which leads to a dog that is completely stressed and emotionally shut down and terrified to offer any behavior at all in fear of being shocked. Compare that to dogs who have been taught with reinforcement-based training who willingly offer new behaviors and engage happily in training and learning.

Watch any of the many SMS videos they have avilable out there on youtube and watch the dog's body language. Every single one of them is stress panting like there's no tomorrow and radiating anxiety from his/her entire body. Its a very sad and disturbing sight, and even more disgusting that this is legal.

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Stormi
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Re: Sit Means Sit Method

Postby Stormi » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:56 pm

Adrianne wrote: Which begs the question how a stimuli (shock) can be both a reward and a punishment.


Well, like you said, its utilizing two quadrants of operant conditioning. Positive punishment, which is the application of punishment and in this case the shock, and negetive reinforcement, which is the removal of the punisher. Its along the same concept of "i pinch your ear until you stop barking". The punisher remains until the desired behavior occurs and then is released to reinforce that behavior. Rather than the dog working to earn a reward, he's working to make the punishment go away. So the shock itself isn't the reward, the release of it is.


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