floppy finish

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merriterrier
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floppy finish

Postby merriterrier » Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:39 pm

Victoria has started flopping on her recall. The recall itself is supurb! an instant response resulting in my Border/Pit catapulting across the field to my feet. Well, actually to stop seemingly in mid air and flip over, landing on her back at my feet in a perfect "rub my tummy" pose. And that is the problem. She does know how to do a correct sit/finish, but has abandoned it in favor of the tummy rub inducing finish (probably much more rewarding). This is not a huge issue since we are training for agility and SAR and a perfect OB recall finish is not so important, but I want her to be more polished should we decide to try OB. (also, as her owner who has to deal with this form of recall everyday, it gets a little annoying to have to dust your dog off every time you call her)

I have been working her from the beginning (as if I was training the recall/finish for the first time), and that has produced some results in the short term, but off the leash she goes right back to flopping. I have tried catching her as she comes in (to manufacture the sit), but she is very fast and I got a bloody nose.

I'm not sure how this happened, but I'm sure it was unintentionally rewarded (since this behavior seems to produce an enchanting effect on most people who instantly feel compelled to bend over and rub her tummy while praising the very air she breathes) and then solidified by the fact that I am LAZY when it is cold out and did not do enough training with Victoria over the winter.

Any ideas would be appreciated!

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BrokenAquarian
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Re: floppy finish

Postby BrokenAquarian » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:29 pm

Call her, don't rub her tummy when she flops - ignore her until she sits up again, then gently praise. Not too much praise, or she might flop over again. :)

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Re: floppy finish

Postby FransterDoo » Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:14 pm

Is she hauling ass to you so fast that she can't stop and flips? or is she slowly down appropriately and just finishing in her "alternate" position?

hehe!

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Re: floppy finish

Postby merriterrier » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:23 am

FransterDoo wrote:Is she hauling ass to you so fast that she can't stop and flips? or is she slowly down appropriately and just finishing in her "alternate" position?

hehe!


No, she can still manage her maneuver. She is very fast, but she must slow down some when she comes in. Her speed has actually been an issue in agility; it took me about 6mo to figure it out so we were together on the course instead of her out in front.

BrokenAquarian wrote:Call her, don't rub her tummy when she flops - ignore her until she sits up again, then gently praise. Not too much praise, or she might flop over again. :)


That is the problem. I have never praised her (or rubbed her tummy) for this, nor has Morgan, we both find it very annoying and unsavory. It is every other person she comes in contact with that finds it completely irresistible (family, friends, coworkers, shelter visitors). Even my trainer has accidentally succumbed once or twice. I started out ignoring her, but if her persistent flopping doesn't pay off she eventually decides to call it a day and shift her attention elsewhere. Maybe I should persist more?

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Re: floppy finish

Postby FransterDoo » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:51 am

I was just wondering if she was slowing down and flopping - you could try throwing the treat/toy between your legs and forcing her to keep moving to capture her reward. The you could start tossing but then closing your legs and giving her the front command so she has to stop quickly while she's used to continuing through your legs. I'd also think about treating her up the front of your body to get her in nice and close.

I might even consider when she does it - giving her a verbal correction and walking away. and just keeping trying over and over until you get to correct behavior.


I bet she's fast and powerful though! Sounds like fun!! I have a friend with a BC/SBT that's doing agility and she's having to do some cardio just to keep up with the dog.

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Re: floppy finish

Postby merriterrier » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:50 pm

FransterDoo wrote:I was just wondering if she was slowing down and flopping - you could try throwing the treat/toy between your legs and forcing her to keep moving to capture her reward. The you could start tossing but then closing your legs and giving her the front command so she has to stop quickly while she's used to continuing through your legs. I'd also think about treating her up the front of your body to get her in nice and close.

I might even consider when she does it - giving her a verbal correction and walking away. and just keeping trying over and over until you get to correct behavior.


I bet she's fast and powerful though! Sounds like fun!! I have a friend with a BC/SBT that's doing agility and she's having to do some cardio just to keep up with the dog.


Sorry it took me so long to get back to this. I was out of town for a few days.

I will totally try that! I think she needs a little less predictability.

Victoria is totally a blast! But, yeah, cardio is a must. I had to start jogging for this dog. lol

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Re: floppy finish

Postby FransterDoo » Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:40 pm

merriterrier wrote:
Sorry it took me so long to get back to this. I was out of town for a few days.

I will totally try that! I think she needs a little less predictability.

Victoria is totally a blast! But, yeah, cardio is a must. I had to start jogging for this dog. lol


It's all good.

I also can't take ownership for that idea. Levi's working with Francis Metcalf once a week and it's a trick he taught us to get the front up nice and tight/close.

I too need to be in better shape to keep up with our youngster! :run:

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Re: floppy finish

Postby Kirstan » Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:34 pm

do you click or use the mark word?

Here's my idea: Start over with the recall to a sit. Start from 1' back, recall her from the heel position, move away from her and recall her from right around you but not super far. You can work on speed later once she sees you are asking for 'recall' which is 'run really fast and sit in front of me'. I did it with Audry - was having a hard time getting a straight and close with a perfect sit so started over with what the recall actually is - come in fast and sit. She still hits me and has her front feet on mine but her recall is uber fast with a perfect sit and her little head straight up in the air looking at me.

Now, if ask her to 'fuss' then 'here' she flips to do it. I can work her a couple feet away or a football field away and the result is the same. Maybe try rewarding ONLY the sit in front for a bit. I would caution away from correction b/c she IS coming to you. I think it's just a misunderstanding of what the position is at the end. She sounds like a happy dog who is trying hard - no place for a correction other than one that is just stepping back and trying it again. So, ask for a sit in front, click, reward, break - a few a day. Up the game a little then drop it back down so she keeps succeeding. IDK, just suggestions.

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Re: floppy finish

Postby merriterrier » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:52 am

Kirstan wrote:do you click or use the mark word?

Here's my idea: Start over with the recall to a sit. Start from 1' back, recall her from the heel position, move away from her and recall her from right around you but not super far. You can work on speed later once she sees you are asking for 'recall' which is 'run really fast and sit in front of me'. I did it with Audry - was having a hard time getting a straight and close with a perfect sit so started over with what the recall actually is - come in fast and sit. She still hits me and has her front feet on mine but her recall is uber fast with a perfect sit and her little head straight up in the air looking at me.

Now, if ask her to 'fuss' then 'here' she flips to do it. I can work her a couple feet away or a football field away and the result is the same. Maybe try rewarding ONLY the sit in front for a bit. I would caution away from correction b/c she IS coming to you. I think it's just a misunderstanding of what the position is at the end. She sounds like a happy dog who is trying hard - no place for a correction other than one that is just stepping back and trying it again. So, ask for a sit in front, click, reward, break - a few a day. Up the game a little then drop it back down so she keeps succeeding. IDK, just suggestions.



Cool, thanks!
Sh is just a happy happy girl, and I know she would do it right if she could just speak English and I could sit down and reason with her lol . I think she has just gotten into this pattern which has now become the default for a recall.

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Re: floppy finish

Postby Kirstan » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:16 pm

Duh, left out the other part of it: We shaped Here (run super fast to me right away), separately from the 'front' which is a sit in tight and close (which is why she's touching me still b/c I haven't shaped it back). So, after she learned 'front', we paired it with here and asked for the 'front' as she hit about 10' away when she was on her 'recall'.

So, 'HEEERE' and when she gets 15' away 'Front'. Fade out the front on the recall later.

eek, can't believe I left that out.

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Re: floppy finish

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:48 pm

lol

before you "fix" this, can you please video tape it?

(...sorry, I know it's really annoying to you but it sounds freaking adorable to me!)


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