help with pulling dog

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AllisonPitbullLvr
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help with pulling dog

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Tue May 22, 2012 7:12 pm

Trisha, have you tried a front-clip harness like the Easy Walk?

I'll ask around for some good trainers in your area (I'm down in Guelph area).

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AllisonPitbullLvr
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help with pulling dog

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Tue May 22, 2012 7:21 pm

Skiplyn Kennels is in Sudbury and I know she's a huge anti-BSL advocate, she has multiple titles on all of her dogs but I can't find anything that explicitly states what her methods are...

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ChevellesMomma
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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Tue May 22, 2012 8:18 pm

1lila1 wrote:
ChevellesMomma wrote:See, and this is what drives me nuts about dog forums. I never said that your way of training was WRONG, but it was clearly stated that mine was....hmm. It always seems to be like that on dog forums, no matter what the POV, it's always "my way is right and yours is wrong blah blah blah". There is more than one way to train a dog and no two trainers will ever agree on everything.


That's because your way is based on debunked methods and old notions that that have nothing to do with how dogs actually learn. You want your dog to learn, right? Not just guess at which behavior is going to avoid him being clawed in the neck with a prong collar?

Sure, different approaches may be needed for different dogs but they should always be grounded in the best science available and always with the philosophy of first and foremost not doing any harm to the dog. Training your dog based on principles of operant and classical conditioning isn't opinion. It's fact that that is how dogs learn. Once YOU'VE learned the principles then you can decide whether a reinforcement for good behavior vs. a punishment for bad behavior is the best approach.

As someone who has done both approaches with one of my dogs, my older one being one who I thought was too tough of a case to use reward based positive reinforcement with, I will say that if you do become a trainer and decide to go the punishment route you would never have me as a client. My "tough case", the kind trainers like you aspire to be deemed too far gone for anything but the "serious" stuff, has blossomed under a gentle reinforcement training program. Not gentle as in I let her get away with stuff but gentle as in not punishing her for having anxiety and being stressed out and then reacting. Turns out just not putting her in those kinds of situations while slowly working her up to where situations that used to send her into a tizzy now just cause her to turn away and look at me like she's been conditioned to do. All through positive reinforcement and without the use of a shock, prong, or any other "tool".

I think it's great you're interested in dog training and behavior. And it always sucks to feel like you're being ganged up on and told you're wrong. But in this case you really are. I was wrong at one time too. And my dog payed the price for it. The difference is that I was greatful to be shown an alternative to the abusive methods my poor dog had been subjected to in the past. I embraced a new way that totally made sense to me and was actually based on science. Please take advantage of it and embrace it, don't fight it. Who knows where my dog would be today if I hadn't taken the advice from people on this forum, esp Red, and educated myself. My dog is 14 now and she is spending her golden years so much happier, calmer, and our relationship is amazing. Really, I know it sucks to be told you're wrong but please just at least consider that in this case you really just might be.


No, I am not wrong. And like I said, to say one training method is wrong and does not work is dog training bigotry. And once again, here come these sweeping blanket statements and generalizations about all dogs...corrective action is sometimes necessary, depending on the dog. That is my point and I guess you can tell my mentor with decades of experience as a trainer/behavioralist that he is wrong too...but I guess this is getting old because I know what works and have seen it work long term in dogs that never had any behavioral issues whatsoever.

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help with pulling dog

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Tue May 22, 2012 8:20 pm

Sorry for the triple post, but just got confirmation that Tammy St. Louis of Skiplyn Kennels uses positive methods. (but I always recommend sitting in on a class before enrolling).

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby 1lila1 » Tue May 22, 2012 8:37 pm

ChevellesMomma wrote:No, I am not wrong. And like I said, to say one training method is wrong and does not work is dog training bigotry. And once again, here come these sweeping blanket statements and generalizations about all dogs...corrective action is sometimes necessary, depending on the dog. That is my point and I guess you can tell my mentor with decades of experience as a trainer/behavioralist that he is wrong too...but I guess this is getting old because I know what works and have seen it work long term in dogs that never had any behavioral issues whatsoever.


I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and come across as nicely as I could. Your close minded attitude and unwillingness to learn, to even consider the science, or that there might be another more productive way, is not going to get you far in your dreams of being a dog trainer. At least not a respected one.

Unfortunately for you there is actually a right way and a wrong way. Positive punishment, intimidation, and coercion are scientifically proven to be ineffectual at best and abusive at worst. Further, word is spreading and responsible owners and trainers alike are realizing the detriment of old school punishment based training and the benefits of actually training in the way dogs learn best. Good luck trying to be respected in any of the circles that rely on actual science and academia to inform themselves. Your colleagues are going to respond to you the same way people are responding to you here. Because you're wrong. Plain and simple. And too close minded to realize when something better is staring you in the face.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Amie » Tue May 22, 2012 8:57 pm

ChevellesMomma wrote:I guess you can tell my mentor with decades of experience as a trainer/behavioralist that he is wrong too.


I'd be happy to. And I'll also mention to him that "behavioralist" isn't even a word, let alone a career.

Aversive methods frequently look like they work. If you really care why they don't, I'd be happy to explain it. If you're just going to throw a fit that people are disagreeing with you, we can just drop it.

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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Tue May 22, 2012 9:05 pm

1lila1 wrote:
ChevellesMomma wrote:No, I am not wrong. And like I said, to say one training method is wrong and does not work is dog training bigotry. And once again, here come these sweeping blanket statements and generalizations about all dogs...corrective action is sometimes necessary, depending on the dog. That is my point and I guess you can tell my mentor with decades of experience as a trainer/behavioralist that he is wrong too...but I guess this is getting old because I know what works and have seen it work long term in dogs that never had any behavioral issues whatsoever.


I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and come across as nicely as I could. Your close minded attitude and unwillingness to learn, to even consider the science, or that there might be another more productive way, is not going to get you far in your dreams of being a dog trainer. At least not a respected one.

Unfortunately for you there is actually a right way and a wrong way. Positive punishment, intimidation, and coercion are scientifically proven to be ineffectual at best and abusive at worst. Further, word is spreading and responsible owners and trainers alike are realizing the detriment of old school punishment based training and the benefits of actually training in the way dogs learn best. Good luck trying to be respected in any of the circles that rely on actual science and academia to inform themselves. Your colleagues are going to respond to you the same way people are responding to you here. Because you're wrong. Plain and simple. And too close minded to realize when something better is staring you in the face.


Being called close minded by a bigoted post is always nice....please, I would love to hear your science on what is better and even MORE sweeping generalizations about dog training. So, by YOUR science, there is no such thing as a dog that come out of proper training with a prong collar without behavioral issues? Because I have known many that went on to excel and were better off. Your post lost a lot of credibility when you said that prong collars "rake their neck". WOW. It is not abuse, in any way. And in your circles, sure, but I prefer not to surround myself with the sort of people that are close minded enough to think that their training method is the absolute only correct way to train a dog. There are many different ways and there are many different types of dogs that they work on with no adverse effects at all. No, I have never seen so much aversion to corrective training methods as I have on this forum. I am glad that you guys have a common goal though, and I commend you for being able to come together with a common state of mind and method. But to say one training method is the absolute and that others are wrong is ridiculous and ignorant. Dogs are LIVING THINGS and can not be stapled with one method because they are all different. You can stick with your ways that only one method is correct and no others, and I will stick with mine and conclude that all dogs are different and respond to different techniques and not one training method is all right for all dogs and not one proper training method is all wrong for all dogs. Diversity is needed when it comes to working with living things. And from the success I have seen in several different methods, and from the success my mentor has seen in several different methods, I am in no way convinced that only one method can work for every dog. Do not get me wrong, I am completely and one hundred percent behind positive training and only using praise, in fact that IS what I use on the dogs that respond to it, which is 98% of dogs, or dogs that I have worked with. It is, IMO, THE method that should be used. But, in some dogs, non-painful corrections are needed (as a last resort, ALWAYS) to help show a dog better what the path is that you want them on. My Rhodesian Ridgeback is an example as one, and there are a few others I have worked with, and many others my mentor had worked with, that needed and responded well to it.
Last edited by ChevellesMomma on Tue May 22, 2012 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Tue May 22, 2012 9:07 pm

Amie wrote:
ChevellesMomma wrote:I guess you can tell my mentor with decades of experience as a trainer/behavioralist that he is wrong too.


I'd be happy to. And I'll also mention to him that "behavioralist" isn't even a word, let alone a career.

Aversive methods frequently look like they work. If you really care why they don't, I'd be happy to explain it. If you're just going to throw a fit that people are disagreeing with you, we can just drop it.


I don't care if people disagree, as I have said. But to say one is wrong is...let me throw this word out there again...is bigotry.

This is a debate, not an argument, if YOU don't like it, don't debate. :)

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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Tue May 22, 2012 9:30 pm

Also, please feel free to PM me, I'd rather not continue to derail this thread.

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help with pulling dog

Postby AllisonPitbullLvr » Tue May 22, 2012 9:41 pm

AllisonPibbleLvr wrote:Sorry for the triple post, but just got confirmation that Tammy St. Louis of Skiplyn Kennels uses positive methods. (but I always recommend sitting in on a class before enrolling).

Andddd now I'm hearing mixed things. Damn.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby UnconventionalLove » Tue May 22, 2012 10:17 pm

I like this a lot:
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/pulling-leash
Takes time and patience, but will teach your dog exactly what you are looking for from him when done consistently and with proper timing. All without having to punish. Makes him think and look forward to doing good instead of anticipating corrections. ;)
Last edited by UnconventionalLove on Tue May 22, 2012 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Tue May 22, 2012 10:20 pm

Me too! Sounds good.

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help with pulling dog

Postby Stormi » Tue May 22, 2012 10:53 pm

ChevellesMomma wrote:I guess you can tell my mentor with decades of experience as a trainer/behavioralist that he is wrong too.


Where is his listing in the applied animal behaviorist directory? Because I'm sure the ABS would love to know one of their certified behaviorists approves the use of prong collars. If he's not there, he has no business using that title (or behavioralist, whatever...)

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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Tue May 22, 2012 11:12 pm

Stormi wrote:
ChevellesMomma wrote:I guess you can tell my mentor with decades of experience as a trainer/behavioralist that he is wrong too.


Where is his listing in the applied animal behaviorist directory? Because I'm sure the ABS would love to know one of their certified behaviorists approves the use of prong collars. If he's not there, he has no business using that title (or behavioralist, whatever...)


That's like saying the only person who deserves the title of trainer is a certified one. Not true. Someone who is not certified can have just as must knowledge as someone who is, IMO. Be that as it is, I don't know if he is or not, I will have to ask. He approves of the use of corrections on dogs that will do well with it/need it. He is first and foremost a positive enforcement trainer, and only uses corrections where he sees it fit, which is rarely.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby MarMar » Tue May 22, 2012 11:47 pm

Amie wrote:
jamielvsaustin wrote:
MarMar wrote:Amie, I really respect you and all the work you do with your dogs, so it saddens me that you find what I said arrogant.


Thanks, Jamie. Yes, my comment was directed at someone else, specifically those who say things like "I tried it on myself and it didn't hurt that much". We all experience pain/discomfort differently and I find it arrogant to say that because something doesn't bother you it shouldn't bother anyone else. Some people don't feel pain when a pet dies, most of us here would find that devastating. I cry over sad movies but deal with the death of animals I love and care for every day without tears - does that mean sad movies hurt me more? (no)

I'm very sorry that my comment was interpreted in a way that made you feel bad, MarMar - that was truly not my intent to make anyone feel bad. I only hoped to point out to people that no sensation - joy, pain, sorrow or anything else - is a one-size-fits-all situation, and it's especially important to remember that when we're the ones causing those feelings. I'm sorry that I caused some bad ones in you!


Thanks Amie, I was hoping it was just a misunderstanding. I did say in one of my first posts that a pinch collar works on pain (which I stand by) so I was concerned but your explanation makes things clear.


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