help with pulling dog

Tricks, obedience, behavior, and more.
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MarMar
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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby MarMar » Tue May 22, 2012 11:58 pm

ChevellesMomma wrote:
Amie wrote:
ChevellesMomma wrote:I guess you can tell my mentor with decades of experience as a trainer/behavioralist that he is wrong too.


I'd be happy to. And I'll also mention to him that "behavioralist" isn't even a word, let alone a career.

Aversive methods frequently look like they work. If you really care why they don't, I'd be happy to explain it. If you're just going to throw a fit that people are disagreeing with you, we can just drop it.


I don't care if people disagree, as I have said. But to say one is wrong is...let me throw this word out there again...is bigotry.

This is a debate, not an argument, if YOU don't like it, don't debate. :)


Actually no, being "bigoted" is being close-minded. I think you will find, if you read carefully, that most of us who promote training without aversives are very open minded. We had to open our minds in order to move from the way of thinking that allowed aversives, and to explore ways of training that didn't take the easy, conventional route of positive punishment but explore other techniques that were more dog-friendly. And yes, when I look at someone who is training a dog and using methods that cause pain and or fear to a dog when they do not have to, when other methods are available to them, I WILL say that is wrong, from an ethical standpoint, and that is not being bigoted, that is making a moral choice.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby starrlamia » Wed May 23, 2012 12:12 am

ChevellesMomma wrote:
Stormi wrote:
ChevellesMomma wrote:I guess you can tell my mentor with decades of experience as a trainer/behavioralist that he is wrong too.


Where is his listing in the applied animal behaviorist directory? Because I'm sure the ABS would love to know one of their certified behaviorists approves the use of prong collars. If he's not there, he has no business using that title (or behavioralist, whatever...)


That's like saying the only person who deserves the title of trainer is a certified one. Not true. Someone who is not certified can have just as must knowledge as someone who is, IMO. Be that as it is, I don't know if he is or not, I will have to ask. He approves of the use of corrections on dogs that will do well with it/need it. He is first and foremost a positive enforcement trainer, and only uses corrections where he sees it fit, which is rarely.

Only people who have university degrees in animal behavior should use the title of behaviorist, sorry but pulling a Cesar Milan and saying you've been around dogs for x number of years means nothing, if it did I'd be able to say I was an expert in human behavior, and I very often do not understand why people behave the way they do.

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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Wed May 23, 2012 12:38 am

starrlamia wrote:
ChevellesMomma wrote:
Stormi wrote:
ChevellesMomma wrote:I guess you can tell my mentor with decades of experience as a trainer/behavioralist that he is wrong too.


Where is his listing in the applied animal behaviorist directory? Because I'm sure the ABS would love to know one of their certified behaviorists approves the use of prong collars. If he's not there, he has no business using that title (or behavioralist, whatever...)


That's like saying the only person who deserves the title of trainer is a certified one. Not true. Someone who is not certified can have just as must knowledge as someone who is, IMO. Be that as it is, I don't know if he is or not, I will have to ask. He approves of the use of corrections on dogs that will do well with it/need it. He is first and foremost a positive enforcement trainer, and only uses corrections where he sees it fit, which is rarely.

Only people who have university degrees in animal behavior should use the title of behaviorist, sorry but pulling a Cesar Milan and saying you've been around dogs for x number of years means nothing, if it did I'd be able to say I was an expert in human behavior, and I very often do not understand why people behave the way they do.

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So you're saying that a certified trainer has more knowledge than a non certified one, simple because they are certified? Or something else? Because I know many certified trainers that don't know zip.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby starrlamia » Wed May 23, 2012 1:07 am

ChevellesMomma wrote:
starrlamia wrote:
ChevellesMomma wrote:
Stormi wrote:
ChevellesMomma wrote:I guess you can tell my mentor with decades of experience as a trainer/behavioralist that he is wrong too.


Where is his listing in the applied animal behaviorist directory? Because I'm sure the ABS would love to know one of their certified behaviorists approves the use of prong collars. If he's not there, he has no business using that title (or behavioralist, whatever...)


That's like saying the only person who deserves the title of trainer is a certified one. Not true. Someone who is not certified can have just as must knowledge as someone who is, IMO. Be that as it is, I don't know if he is or not, I will have to ask. He approves of the use of corrections on dogs that will do well with it/need it. He is first and foremost a positive enforcement trainer, and only uses corrections where he sees it fit, which is rarely.

Only people who have university degrees in animal behavior should use the title of behaviorist, sorry but pulling a Cesar Milan and saying you've been around dogs for x number of years means nothing, if it did I'd be able to say I was an expert in human behavior, and I very often do not understand why people behave the way they do.

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So you're saying that a certified trainer has more knowledge than a non certified one, simple because they are certified? Or something else? Because I know many certified trainers that don't know zip.

Im saying a behaviourist should have an educational background that includes a degree in animal behaviour. Behaviourists and trainers are not the same thing. I expect trainers to be knowledgable and educated when training dogs, and I wish more of them took the time to actually study behaviour and learning in the animals they are training so they dont go around using methods that are not scientifically based and are abusive. Normal trainers (ie most people out there) should be training the basics, and behaviourists should be the ones dealing with animals that have problems (maybe not pulling on leash thats pretty basic, but say leash reactivity).

some science for you
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 112711.htm


http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues ... 004-1.html
One study, conducted by scientists at the University of Southampton in the UK and the University of Life Sciences in Norway, evaluated whether punishment was a contributor to behavior problems, and examined the effects of reward, punishment, and rule structure (permissiveness/strictness and consistency) on training and behavior problems. Information was collected via questionnaires from 217 dog guardians. Those who used strong and/or frequent punishment had a significantly higher level of training problems and lower obedience in their dogs. A similar study, conducted at Britain’s University of Bristol, also found that dogs trained only with positive reinforcement exhibited fewer problem behaviors.


http://www.angelpawstherapy.org/why-no- ... llars.html
“They (choke, prong & e-collars) do not work the way people think they do, and there are better tools and understandings for accomplishing what people who use these seek to accomplish. Such tools ‘work’ by engendering fear, pain, and distrust, and in doing so they cause long-term damage that make dogs more reactive, less trusting, and less able to reach their full potential in their partnership with humans, no matter what form that partnership takes. These are not my opinions: these are the findings from the scientific literature, and this is an essential point. As a scientist I do not have the luxury of claiming that I am right because I have done something one way for years, nor do I have the ability to assert that a technique does not injure dogs when the evidence indicates otherwise. Science is about understanding patterns in how the world works and, as such, provides a methodology by which we can test claims and assertions. When these adversarial methods have been tested rigorously, they have been found wanting. ... 'Obedient' dogs can be quite distressed, and suffer from profound anxiety while complying with a request. ... A blind reliance on these methods is preventing handlers and trainers from having a partnership with science and scientists that would benefit both of them. The historic use of adversarial, coercive techniques no longer makes sense given what we now know about dog cognition and learning. We can do better. The canine handler teams that work best are those that best understand and trust each other. Anything that interferes with that trust and understanding is hurting the team."
- Karen Overall, Journal of Veterinary Behavior Clinical Applications & Research (2007)



http://www.azs.no/artikler/art_training_methods.pdf
The greatest number of current problematic behaviors was reported by respondents using punishment only, or a combination of both punishment and reward
 

I'll stop there Im sure someone has way more that they could post
     
 

         
 

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ChevellesMomma
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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Wed May 23, 2012 1:24 am

The first two links you offered do not apply to me, as I never once said to agree with the dominance theory as a training method. I am going through the third and fourth one now.

Also, he does have a degree in Applied Animal Behavioral Science and he took classes on something else more canine specific, though I can't remember where and I can ask him.

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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Wed May 23, 2012 1:31 am

"Such tools ‘work’ by engendering fear, pain, and distrust, and in doing so they cause long-term damage that make dogs more reactive, less trusting, and less able to reach their full potential in their partnership with humans, no matter what form that partnership takes."

This is where it confuses me and where I disagree. This is the effect of using a prong collar improperly, IMO. Sure, if you tug on it all day and just scream at the dog, nothing is going to happen and that WILL cause a negative relationship as you will most assuredly be damaging your dog. But if used properly, they can be effective training tools with no damage done whatsoever. They should always be used as a last resort, as I agree that positive reinforcement is the better option, and very few dogs need correction, but some dogs DO need it. It should be used as a tool, not a permanent thing, and if immediate results are not seen, something else should be tried. But I stand by that if used properly on a dog with the temperament to handle the correction, they are great. I would never recommend one for use on certain breeds like small dog breeds...Great Danes...soft tempered dogs do not respond well to correction and it can cause damage in those dogs. But at the risk of sounding like a broken record, in my experience and in the experience of many others, the prong collar when used properly can be a wonderful correction tool that improves training "morale" within the dog of correct temperament and yield amazing results. It is all in proper usage.

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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Wed May 23, 2012 1:36 am

And I think the point of my argument is being missed so I think the debate is becoming useless. I say "I am a believer in positive reinforcement and agree to use that first and foremost, but I also agree that a small percentage of dogs do well with correctional methods and can/do need it to excel in training." and you hear "Screw praise, slap a prong collar on it!" which is not my argument...AT ALL.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby starrlamia » Wed May 23, 2012 1:56 am

ChevellesMomma wrote:"Such tools ‘work’ by engendering fear, pain, and distrust, and in doing so they cause long-term damage that make dogs more reactive, less trusting, and less able to reach their full potential in their partnership with humans, no matter what form that partnership takes."

But at the risk of sounding like a broken record, in my experience and in the experience of many others, the prong collar when used properly can be a wonderful correction tool that improves training "morale" within the dog of correct temperament and yield amazing results. It is all in proper usage.

You are mistaking anecdotal perceptions with proof and ignoring scientific study that says the opposite of you. You called people bigots, however you yourself are showing ignorance by ignoring the science behind it.

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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Wed May 23, 2012 1:58 am

starrlamia wrote:
ChevellesMomma wrote:"Such tools ‘work’ by engendering fear, pain, and distrust, and in doing so they cause long-term damage that make dogs more reactive, less trusting, and less able to reach their full potential in their partnership with humans, no matter what form that partnership takes."

But at the risk of sounding like a broken record, in my experience and in the experience of many others, the prong collar when used properly can be a wonderful correction tool that improves training "morale" within the dog of correct temperament and yield amazing results. It is all in proper usage.

You are mistaking anecdotal perceptions with proof and ignoring scientific study that says the opposite of you. You called people bigots, however you yourself are showing ignorance by ignoring the science behind it.

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Science behind it or not, I have seen with my own eyes and so have many people I know dogs improved with correctional training methods and have never come out with any of the things mentioned in that study.

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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Wed May 23, 2012 2:15 am

This debate is going in circles. I agree to disagree, or, you win. Whatever. If you want to continue, please PM me.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby 1lila1 » Wed May 23, 2012 6:36 pm

ChevellesMomma wrote:Being called close minded by a bigoted post is always nice....please, I would love to hear your science on what is better and even MORE sweeping generalizations about dog training. So, by YOUR science, there is no such thing as a dog that come out of proper training with a prong collar without behavioral issues? Because I have known many that went on to excel and were better off.


I don't believe my post was bigoted in anyway. When you get done looking up Operant and Classical Conditioning take a peak at the dictionary definiton of the word bigot.

And it's not "my" science. It is basic scientific tenants on how dogs learn and how their brains work that is accepted by actual scientists who've made it their life's work to study canine behavior. In an academic setting with the proper respect given to the Scientifc Method. I'm a layperson with respect to this field although I do have a graduate degree in a different science field so maybe the more technical jargon laced studies are easier for me to read and comprehend. Otherwise I'm just a normal dog owner who wants to teach my dogs using the most effective methods and ones that are based in facts not myths and that do more good than harm.



Your post lost a lot of credibility when you said that prong collars "rake their neck". WOW. It is not abuse, in any way.


I'm afraid you lost me here because I never said that. I do think shock, choke, and prong collars are abusive.

And in your circles, sure, but I prefer not to surround myself with the sort of people that are close minded enough to think that their training method is the absolute only correct way to train a dog. There are many different ways and there are many different types of dogs that they work on with no adverse effects at all.


Like I said, I'm a lay person in this field but the trainers who I allow to handle and work with my dogs are those that are intelligent enough and open minded enough to recognize science and base their methods off that rather than old school approaches based on debunked theories.

But to say one training method is the absolute and that others are wrong is ridiculous and ignorant. Dogs are LIVING THINGS and can not be stapled with one method because they are all different. You can stick with your ways that only one method is correct and no others, and I will stick with mine and conclude that all dogs are different and respond to different techniques and not one training method is all right for all dogs and not one proper training method is all wrong for all dogs. Diversity is needed when it comes to working with living things.


This is where you are missing the point. Of course different dogs require different approaches. My own two dogs are so different from each other and I deal with them both differently. But there are plenty of ways to account for the needs of individual dogs while still following scientific principles and actually teaching a dog a desired behavior while eliminating an unwanted one.

I suspect that many of the behaviors a dog exhibits that you think are worthy of a punishment or physical correction could be eliminated simply by controlling the training environment and not allowing the dog to go over their personal threshold while teaching them the basics. If you simply do this the "need" for punishment is eliminated and you can build the dog up positively instead.

This also allows a dog to actually think and comprehend, something he or she cannot do when they are so riled up and stressed because they were allowed in a situation that put them over the threshold. Punishing a dog who is so amped up he can't even hear you or rationalize in his brain is beyond cruel. As is punishing a dog when a different approach, a kinder one, one that teaches rather than punishes, would work even better.

And from the success I have seen in several different methods, and from the success my mentor has seen in several different methods, I am in no way convinced that only one method can work for every dog. Do not get me wrong, I am completely and one hundred percent behind positive training and only using praise, in fact that IS what I use on the dogs that respond to it, which is 98% of dogs, or dogs that I have worked with. It is, IMO, THE method that should be used.


In what situations would a dog not respond to praise? And why? Absence of a behavior in response to punishment is not a success. The dog is merely avoiding a negative repercussion. You haven't addressed the underlying issue, the reason the behavior exists in the first place. In the worst case you have simply caused a stress induced shut down and learned helplessness. Then a "trainer" claims success when the dog is worse off than before.

Have you read the study where dogs were put in an electrified room and repeatedly shocked until eventually the ones given no way out of the room learned they were helpless and just laid there and took the shocks? That's what happens to a dog who has shut down and the ignorant trainer thinks he or she is some genius dog whisperer. And so do the ignorant owners. Until they realize the behavior is back and the vicious cycle continues.

But, in some dogs, non-painful corrections are needed (as a last resort, ALWAYS) to help show a dog better what the path is that you want them on. My Rhodesian Ridgeback is an example as one, and there are a few others I have worked with, and many others my mentor had worked with, that needed and responded well to it.


Again, what situations? And what are the corrections if they're not painful? Do you mean physically unpleasant? Uncomfortable? I'm actually genuinely curious. If you don't want to post them in this thread could you make another? I use vocal corrections to communicate with my dog but only after I'm sure they already know what I want from them. My dogs are definitely not "average owner" dogs and they have issues but even then I haven't found that anything harsher or physically painful is needed.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Trisha45 » Wed May 23, 2012 7:50 pm

AllisonPibbleLvr wrote:
AllisonPibbleLvr wrote:Sorry for the triple post, but just got confirmation that Tammy St. Louis of Skiplyn Kennels uses positive methods. (but I always recommend sitting in on a class before enrolling).

Andddd now I'm hearing mixed things. Damn.


I have also heard mixed things about her as well. I do know she is very anti-BSL and has a few pits, and I think that is great. I know not everyone is going to like one trainer for one reason or another, but having more positive reviews than negative ones is more appealing to me. I haven't heard many positive reviews about her training methods, but am willing to at least contact her and possibly watch a class. I can let you know my thoughts on it if you like.
I have tried a few things with Brandy, and they seem to be working. I have to speak really softly to her and remind myself to stay calm and not get frustrated because I know it's not her fault she is the way she is. Although I haven't taken her out much during the day because it's been so incredibly hot here and I don't want to risk heat stroke even though I bring water for her. So early mornings and later in the evenings is when we go out and I work with her. It's much easier at those times because there aren't so many distractions. I find that's when she gets the most anxiety. I watch her body language and if it changes, I have her sit until she calms down and say 'ok' and we start walking again. If I need to have her do this multiple times, I do. She sometimes yawns when I make her sit and I know this is behaviour conflict of not being able to go to the distraction. I pet her and give her some praise as well. I hope I'm doing things right.
I'm starting to think I shouldn't have named my thread 'help with pulling dog' and more like 'anxiety issues' or something along that line. Since I seem to have started a huge debate about prong collars. Oops. Not my intention at all.
I'll keep you updated on how she is doing. Thanks for your help. :)

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby MarMar » Thu May 24, 2012 8:08 pm

Best of luck to you Trisha. Don't worry at all about the thread, I think these types of discussions are important, even if just for lurkers who may not post but may be inspired to learn more or question things that they are unsure of.

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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Sun May 27, 2012 11:27 pm

I am going to post this quote made by another person on another discussion similar to this one, and just see what you guys think:

I am a positive reinforcement based trainer and to be honest I DESPISE the term purely positive. If anyone was truly purely positive, never once verbally corrected their dog, my guess is that dog would probably walk all over its owners.

I do not, and will not, ever administer physical corrections again. My dogs are sensitive enough to verbal corrections (Jumping on the counter warrants a "Ah-ah" or a "NO", pulling, barking at the deer, etc.). That is how I train.

People use the terms "Positive training" and "Traditional Training". What do those even mean? Positive Reinforcement is not the only sector of Operant Conditioning. Some trainers, including myself, choose to employ Positive Reinforcement (Marking a good behavior with positive- meaning adding an additional component- such as food, toys, or praise) and Negative Punishment (You don't play by my rules, you don't get to play at all).

However, some choose to use all four methods of operant conditioning to alter behavior. The additional reinforcers are Negative Punishment (The ear pinch method of teaching dumbbell retrieves is one of the most common examples) and Positive Punishment (the most common form of correction- the addition of a punishment for an undesirable behavior).

I am not the type of person who will argue my side to the death. It is my business, and my business only, what type of training I do. Same with everyone else. If someone were to ask me a direct question, like "Do you like Cesar Milan's techniques", I would say no, and explain why, however I don't go running around posting "Cesar Abuses Dogs" on my facebook.

There are scientifically proven arguments for every single training method out there. We are ALL using operant conditioning. The problem is, people take it way too far, and when dogs actually start getting injured, that is past the point of training.


I agree with this whole heartedly. I do not understand your argument simply because I do not quite understand what you are claiming. Do you claim that there is no such thing as a dog that comes out of training with a prong collar without having behavioral issues? This isn't true, and I know it's not true, because I have seen it with my own two eyes.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby starrlamia » Mon May 28, 2012 2:16 am

Of course there are dogs who aren't negatively affected by prongs, but the percentage of dogs who could be is a lot higher then with some other training methods, why take the risk?

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