ChevellesMomma wrote:Being called close minded by a bigoted post is always nice....please, I would love to hear your science on what is better and even MORE sweeping generalizations about dog training. So, by YOUR science, there is no such thing as a dog that come out of proper training with a prong collar without behavioral issues? Because I have known many that went on to excel and were better off.
I don't believe my post was bigoted in anyway. When you get done looking up Operant and Classical Conditioning take a peak at the dictionary definiton of the word bigot.
And it's not "my" science. It is basic scientific tenants on how dogs learn and how their brains work that is accepted by actual scientists who've made it their life's work to study canine behavior. In an academic setting with the proper respect given to the Scientifc Method. I'm a layperson with respect to this field although I do have a graduate degree in a different science field so maybe the more technical jargon laced studies are easier for me to read and comprehend. Otherwise I'm just a normal dog owner who wants to teach my dogs using the most effective methods and ones that are based in facts not myths and that do more good than harm.
Your post lost a lot of credibility when you said that prong collars "rake their neck". WOW. It is not abuse, in any way.
I'm afraid you lost me here because I never said that. I do think shock, choke, and prong collars are abusive.
And in your circles, sure, but I prefer not to surround myself with the sort of people that are close minded enough to think that their training method is the absolute only correct way to train a dog. There are many different ways and there are many different types of dogs that they work on with no adverse effects at all.
Like I said, I'm a lay person in this field but the trainers who I allow to handle and work with my dogs are those that are intelligent enough and open minded enough to recognize science and base their methods off that rather than old school approaches based on debunked theories.
But to say one training method is the absolute and that others are wrong is ridiculous and ignorant. Dogs are LIVING THINGS and can not be stapled with one method because they are all different. You can stick with your ways that only one method is correct and no others, and I will stick with mine and conclude that all dogs are different and respond to different techniques and not one training method is all right for all dogs and not one proper training method is all wrong for all dogs. Diversity is needed when it comes to working with living things.
This is where you are missing the point. Of course different dogs require different approaches. My own two dogs are so different from each other and I deal with them both differently. But there are plenty of ways to account for the needs of individual dogs while still following scientific principles and actually teaching a dog a desired behavior while eliminating an unwanted one.
I suspect that many of the behaviors a dog exhibits that you think are worthy of a punishment or physical correction could be eliminated simply by controlling the training environment and not allowing the dog to go over their personal threshold while teaching them the basics. If you simply do this the "need" for punishment is eliminated and you can build the dog up positively instead.
This also allows a dog to actually think and comprehend, something he or she cannot do when they are so riled up and stressed because they were allowed in a situation that put them over the threshold. Punishing a dog who is so amped up he can't even hear you or rationalize in his brain is beyond cruel. As is punishing a dog when a different approach, a kinder one, one that teaches rather than punishes, would work even better.
And from the success I have seen in several different methods, and from the success my mentor has seen in several different methods, I am in no way convinced that only one method can work for every dog. Do not get me wrong, I am completely and one hundred percent behind positive training and only using praise, in fact that IS what I use on the dogs that respond to it, which is 98% of dogs, or dogs that I have worked with. It is, IMO, THE method that should be used.
In what situations would a dog not respond to praise? And why? Absence of a behavior in response to punishment is not a success. The dog is merely avoiding a negative repercussion. You haven't addressed the underlying issue, the reason the behavior exists in the first place. In the worst case you have simply caused a stress induced shut down and learned helplessness. Then a "trainer" claims success when the dog is worse off than before.
Have you read the study where dogs were put in an electrified room and repeatedly shocked until eventually the ones given no way out of the room learned they were helpless and just laid there and took the shocks? That's what happens to a dog who has shut down and the ignorant trainer thinks he or she is some genius dog whisperer. And so do the ignorant owners. Until they realize the behavior is back and the vicious cycle continues.
But, in some dogs, non-painful corrections are needed (as a last resort, ALWAYS) to help show a dog better what the path is that you want them on. My Rhodesian Ridgeback is an example as one, and there are a few others I have worked with, and many others my mentor had worked with, that needed and responded well to it.
Again, what situations? And what are the corrections if they're not painful? Do you mean physically unpleasant? Uncomfortable? I'm actually genuinely curious. If you don't want to post them in this thread could you make another? I use vocal corrections to communicate with my dog but only after I'm sure they already know what I want from them. My dogs are definitely not "average owner" dogs and they have issues but even then I haven't found that anything harsher or physically painful is needed.