help with pulling dog

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ChevellesMomma
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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Mon May 28, 2012 2:51 am

starrlamia wrote:Of course there are dogs who aren't negatively affected by prongs, but the percentage of dogs who could be is a lot higher then with some other training methods, why take the risk?

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Because if judged correctly it is effective and it can make the dog much happier in the long run. I would never use a prong as a first resort or on a dog that did not respond to it correctly the very first time.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby starrlamia » Mon May 28, 2012 12:28 pm

ChevellesMomma wrote:
starrlamia wrote:Of course there are dogs who aren't negatively affected by prongs, but the percentage of dogs who could be is a lot higher then with some other training methods, why take the risk?

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Because if judged correctly it is effective and it can make the dog much happier in the long run. I would never use a prong as a first resort or on a dog that did not respond to it correctly the very first time.

im not sure i consider pulling on the leash to have a huge impact on a dogs happiness, in fact id wager they would be happier pulling lol

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ChevellesMomma
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help with pulling dog

Postby ChevellesMomma » Mon May 28, 2012 2:07 pm

starrlamia wrote:
ChevellesMomma wrote:
starrlamia wrote:Of course there are dogs who aren't negatively affected by prongs, but the percentage of dogs who could be is a lot higher then with some other training methods, why take the risk?

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2


Because if judged correctly it is effective and it can make the dog much happier in the long run. I would never use a prong as a first resort or on a dog that did not respond to it correctly the very first time.

im not sure i consider pulling on the leash to have a huge impact on a dogs happiness, in fact id wager they would be happier pulling lol


It made mine happier because I was in a better mood when walking him, lol. Now we can walk with a flat collar with no pulling.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby MarMar » Tue May 29, 2012 8:44 pm

ChevellesMomma wrote:I am going to post this quote made by another person on another discussion similar to this one, and just see what you guys think:

I am a positive reinforcement based trainer and to be honest I DESPISE the term purely positive. If anyone was truly purely positive, never once verbally corrected their dog, my guess is that dog would probably walk all over its owners.

I do not, and will not, ever administer physical corrections again. My dogs are sensitive enough to verbal corrections (Jumping on the counter warrants a "Ah-ah" or a "NO", pulling, barking at the deer, etc.). That is how I train.

People use the terms "Positive training" and "Traditional Training". What do those even mean? Positive Reinforcement is not the only sector of Operant Conditioning. Some trainers, including myself, choose to employ Positive Reinforcement (Marking a good behavior with positive- meaning adding an additional component- such as food, toys, or praise) and Negative Punishment (You don't play by my rules, you don't get to play at all).

However, some choose to use all four methods of operant conditioning to alter behavior. The additional reinforcers are Negative Punishment (The ear pinch method of teaching dumbbell retrieves is one of the most common examples) and Positive Punishment (the most common form of correction- the addition of a punishment for an undesirable behavior).

I am not the type of person who will argue my side to the death. It is my business, and my business only, what type of training I do. Same with everyone else. If someone were to ask me a direct question, like "Do you like Cesar Milan's techniques", I would say no, and explain why, however I don't go running around posting "Cesar Abuses Dogs" on my facebook.

There are scientifically proven arguments for every single training method out there. We are ALL using operant conditioning. The problem is, people take it way too far, and when dogs actually start getting injured, that is past the point of training.


I agree with this whole heartedly. I do not understand your argument simply because I do not quite understand what you are claiming. Do you claim that there is no such thing as a dog that comes out of training with a prong collar without having behavioral issues? This isn't true, and I know it's not true, because I have seen it with my own two eyes.


This person is right in that "purely positive" is not really a "thing". It is impossible to train, or in fact deal with a dog (or any other animal) and use ONLY positive reinforcement. This is one of those things that people who don't truly understand what R+ training is about. Trainers who describe themselves as Positive Reinforcement trainers often make use of negative punishment.

In addition, there are plenty of people who do not need or use verbal corrections on their dogs. If a verbal correction works to stop a behavior, it is aversive to the dog, and the same behavioural change can be implemented free of aversives. Furthermore, positive trainers' dogs do not "walk all over them". Just because a trainer does not use aversives, does not mean that the dogs do not have rules, are not well trained, and are not expected to comply.

Dogs CAN be trained to walk nicely with a prong and not suffer major behavioural fallout. But with so many other options available that are not unpleasant to do the dog, WHY would you do it? That's the main issue here.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Trisha45 » Tue May 29, 2012 8:50 pm

Well after reading everyone's posts on here I really do believe that Brandy has a lot of anxiety. Still have no idea where it came from though. I'm sure it would help if I knew how she was raised and trained, but unfortunately I don't. I try and have her walk beside me now and if I see another dog, person, etc. I have her sit and when she has calmed down, we start walking again. If she pulls, I have her sit again until she is calm and focused on me and then continue walking. It takes a bit longer to go for a walk, but I would prefer my girl to be happy when walking and not super stressed out. Everyone was super helpful and please let me know if I'm doing things right. She seems to be responding well but I admit I'm quite disappointed in myself as her owner to not have recognized the signs earlier.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby starrlamia » Tue May 29, 2012 10:02 pm

It isn't your fault, some dogs are prone to anxiety and it isn't necessarily due to their past, it could well be genetic. The fact that you recognize it and are taking steps to help her makes you a good owner!

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Celesteandthebullies » Tue May 29, 2012 11:05 pm

MarMar wrote:
ChevellesMomma wrote:I am going to post this quote made by another person on another discussion similar to this one, and just see what you guys think:

I am a positive reinforcement based trainer and to be honest I DESPISE the term purely positive. If anyone was truly purely positive, never once verbally corrected their dog, my guess is that dog would probably walk all over its owners.

I do not, and will not, ever administer physical corrections again. My dogs are sensitive enough to verbal corrections (Jumping on the counter warrants a "Ah-ah" or a "NO", pulling, barking at the deer, etc.). That is how I train.

People use the terms "Positive training" and "Traditional Training". What do those even mean? Positive Reinforcement is not the only sector of Operant Conditioning. Some trainers, including myself, choose to employ Positive Reinforcement (Marking a good behavior with positive- meaning adding an additional component- such as food, toys, or praise) and Negative Punishment (You don't play by my rules, you don't get to play at all).

However, some choose to use all four methods of operant conditioning to alter behavior. The additional reinforcers are Negative Punishment (The ear pinch method of teaching dumbbell retrieves is one of the most common examples) and Positive Punishment (the most common form of correction- the addition of a punishment for an undesirable behavior).

I am not the type of person who will argue my side to the death. It is my business, and my business only, what type of training I do. Same with everyone else. If someone were to ask me a direct question, like "Do you like Cesar Milan's techniques", I would say no, and explain why, however I don't go running around posting "Cesar Abuses Dogs" on my facebook.

There are scientifically proven arguments for every single training method out there. We are ALL using operant conditioning. The problem is, people take it way too far, and when dogs actually start getting injured, that is past the point of training.


I agree with this whole heartedly. I do not understand your argument simply because I do not quite understand what you are claiming. Do you claim that there is no such thing as a dog that comes out of training with a prong collar without having behavioral issues? This isn't true, and I know it's not true, because I have seen it with my own two eyes.


This person is right in that "purely positive" is not really a "thing". It is impossible to train, or in fact deal with a dog (or any other animal) and use ONLY positive reinforcement. This is one of those things that people who don't truly understand what R+ training is about. Trainers who describe themselves as Positive Reinforcement trainers often make use of negative punishment.

In addition, there are plenty of people who do not need or use verbal corrections on their dogs. If a verbal correction works to stop a behavior, it is aversive to the dog, and the same behavioural change can be implemented free of aversives. Furthermore, positive trainers' dogs do not "walk all over them". Just because a trainer does not use aversives, does not mean that the dogs do not have rules, are not well trained, and are not expected to comply.

Dogs CAN be trained to walk nicely with a prong and not suffer major behavioural fallout. But with so many other options available that are not unpleasant to do the dog, WHY would you do it? That's the main issue here.


Yeeess that drives me nuts. Sometimes I don't know what to say, I've normally go with "I do not use aversive punishments". But I used to hate saying "I'm a positive reinforcement trainer" because... well I wasn't. Dog was being demanding? I left the room... that's not PR.

A verbal correction doesn't necessarily have to be aversive to stop a behavior, but I get what you're saying. Verbal sounds meant nothing to my dog unless taught, I had to teach him that "Nope!" meant "Oops, that's not what I want" and teaching him that made him all the more obedient. (Poor wording, he was obedient, he just didn't know what I was asking of him.)

Now though, even then I have to be careful with it. It works wondrously in some settings, like heeling, if he started getting to far ahead "Nope" I'd stop, he'd get in place, we'd move on. Got rewarded for getting it right. But if he had no friggen clue what I was asking of him and I just kept saying "Nope... Nope.... Nope" He'd become very frustrated and stressed because he doesn't like messing up.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Amie » Wed May 30, 2012 6:05 am

Celesteandthebullies wrote:Yeeess that drives me nuts. Sometimes I don't know what to say, I've normally go with "I do not use aversive punishments". But I used to hate saying "I'm a positive reinforcement trainer" because... well I wasn't.


I say "I use a lot of classical conditioning and operant conditioning." It doesn't eliminate aversives, certainly, but frankly, most people don't really care enough to listen to the answer anyway. If someone is interested, I explain why most times aversive are more trouble than they're worth (such as, they appear to stop the behavior you're trying to stop, but you don't get to pick the behavior that replaces it, and that could be much worse) and that I focus on being fair and empowering, giving me dogs that are happy, clever, problem-solvers.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby starrlamia » Wed May 30, 2012 11:19 am

I think most people say positive reinforcement etc as a way of saying they don't use aversives, it's just semantics.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby 1lila1 » Wed May 30, 2012 3:44 pm

MarMar wrote:This person is right in that "purely positive" is not really a "thing". It is impossible to train, or in fact deal with a dog (or any other animal) and use ONLY positive reinforcement. This is one of those things that people who don't truly understand what R+ training is about. Trainers who describe themselves as Positive Reinforcement trainers often make use of negative punishment.

In addition, there are plenty of people who do not need or use verbal corrections on their dogs. If a verbal correction works to stop a behavior, it is aversive to the dog, and the same behavioural change can be implemented free of aversives. Furthermore, positive trainers' dogs do not "walk all over them". Just because a trainer does not use aversives, does not mean that the dogs do not have rules, are not well trained, and are not expected to comply.

Dogs CAN be trained to walk nicely with a prong and not suffer major behavioural fallout. But with so many other options available that are not unpleasant to do the dog, WHY would you do it? That's the main issue here.


Good post! I think the main issue here is positive reinforcement vs positive punishment. PR tends to get used a lot, I do it too, but negative punishment can be humanely used as well. I just don't like PP as I find it's unnecessary and has the potential to cause much more harm than good. And if there are more humane ways to train a dog then why not use them?

Even a tool like a head harness, generally humane, can be aversive if used wrong or on the wrong dog. Both my dogs were introduced to them slowly and with lots of positive reinforcement. My older dog just can't stand them and although she will wear one she is much more stressed and reaches her threshold sooner with one on. A flat collar works best for her. She is much calmer when she can freely choose to look away from an approaching dog to me than "directed" to do so with a head collar not matter how gently. She just doesn't like it on her face. My younger dog is fine with them although I only use them when we're in crowded situations or when I feel a little more control might be needed. Other than that a flat collar is fine for him as well.

I do use a vocal correction to communicate with my dogs. Obviously chasing the cats will get a more harsh "eh eh" than simply breaking a heel without permission. Folding your arms and turning your back to a jumping mouthing dog is a punishment in and of itself. Even if you don't consider actual behavior modification but simple training. Is a perfect heel really worth choking, pinching, or shocking your dog over? I just don't see positive punishment or painful (even "uncomfortable") physical corrections are needed or more effective if you work the dog under their individual threshold like you're supposed to and focus on teaching rather than punishing.

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby MarMar » Thu May 31, 2012 8:47 pm

A verbal correction doesn't necessarily have to be aversive to stop a behavior, but I get what you're saying. Verbal sounds meant nothing to my dog unless taught, I had to teach him that "Nope!" meant "Oops, that's not what I want" and teaching him that made him all the more obedient. (Poor wording, he was obedient, he just didn't know what I was asking of him.)


Used this way, you are employing a No Reward Marker, and not a "correction" as such (intended as a punisher to stop a behaviour). However there is some debate on the effect of NRMs, as some dogs can in fact find them punishing even if they are not intended as such.


http://www.clickertraining.com/node/179

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Trisha45 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:40 pm

Thanks for all of your help and great advice. I'm still working with her, but not seeing any progress. I thought there was some, but maybe she was just being super good those few days. I don't know what else to do with her. She's just bananas when she sees other dogs and it's like I don't exist at all in her little world for those few seconds. It's not aggression, just crazy over excitment. Like she just can't contain herself. She's not big, but when all 60lbs of her wants to go somewhere I have a hard time holding her back and I'm not a little girl. I'll stick with what I am doing though as I know training doesn't happen overnight.

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help with pulling dog

Postby Stormi » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:46 pm

Trisha45 wrote:Thanks for all of your help and great advice. I'm still working with her, but not seeing any progress. I thought there was some, but maybe she was just being super good those few days. I don't know what else to do with her. She's just bananas when she sees other dogs and it's like I don't exist at all in her little world for those few seconds. It's not aggression, just crazy over excitment. Like she just can't contain herself. She's not big, but when all 60lbs of her wants to go somewhere I have a hard time holding her back and I'm not a little girl. I'll stick with what I am doing though as I know training doesn't happen overnight.


You're absolutely right that training doesn't happen overnight, especially when it involves the leash. Loose leash walking and impulse control are two of the most difficult tasks for dogs (impulse control is difficult for any species including us) to learn. We often recommend to clients to keep a daily journal of their walks to track progress. By nature we humans tend to remember the bad days and ignore the good, so having it documented helps show where you are succeeding and where you need improvement and maybe an alternative technique or two. It doesn't have to be anything extensive, just "went for ___ minute walk, worked on training __ behaviors, __ went well or need to improve on __."

Are there particular areas that you are having difficulty with? What is working? What isnt?

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Re: help with pulling dog

Postby Trisha45 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:28 pm

If there are no other dogs or other animals or kids shes fine walking. She does want to be at the very end of her leash which I don'k like, so a lot of the times I make her walk beside me. Neither one of us like it, but for me she is easier to control. If she sees a distraction, she either plant herself into the ground or pull towards it. She doesn't listen to the 'come' command 99% of the time and if I make her sit I usually have to stand over her to keep her where she is and then she gets upset and starts this insane screaming thing. But I praise her for being good and sitting, not for the screaming thing, which I'm not sure what to do about. I don't know whether to ignore it or correct her. I don't want to make it worse. Some people think it's cute, but I am not one of them. She's an amazing dog and has come so far in the year and a half that I have owned her, but I just can't solve this problem and make it better. I get so stressed out by it. I live in a an area where people unfortunately don't walk their dogs, and just tie them up or just let them run loose so it's hard for me to know when we are going to see a dog because sometimes they just come out of nowhere and it makes a situation that much harder to control. At least if I see them tied up outside I can prepare myself for it and move to the other side of the road to try and avoid it as much as possible. I just feel like I'm doing all the wrong things and am stressing my dog out by even taking her for a walk.

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help with pulling dog

Postby Stormi » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:56 pm

Ok, so it sounds like you've got a few things you want to work on:

1. Loose leash walking
2. Reactivity/over-arousal near other dogs and children
3. Recall
4. Impulse control amidst distractions

What techniques have you tried for each and for how long? How specifically are you reinforcing behavior that you want?


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