I need links from you dog trainers!

Tricks, obedience, behavior, and more.
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ChevellesMomma
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I need links from you dog trainers!

Postby ChevellesMomma » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:06 pm

I need links that state the fact that you can not "train out" a genetic instinctual trait from a dog.

I am currently in a debate with a woman that is dead set that you can teach a dog that instinctually herds to not WANT to herd, or a dog that has instinctual prey drive to not WANT to chase other animals. She won't believe me... So, can anybody give me some links that I can reference to her?

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ChevellesMomma
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I need links from you dog trainers!

Postby ChevellesMomma » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:12 pm

Bump

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Celesteandthebullies
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Re: I need links from you dog trainers!

Postby Celesteandthebullies » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:23 pm

If I weren't busy with a project at the moment I'd do some digging. I'd recommend using "nature vs nurture" in your google search along with other key words like aggression, dog behavior, training, herding, instincts


this is about aggression/fear but talks about genetics playing a role
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1690

this may have something, human based.
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/H ... vior.shtml

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Re: I need links from you dog trainers!

Postby PBF lurker » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:34 pm

I tend to agree that you cannot [humanely] train out the desire for some instinctual behaviors, like predetory behavior. However you CAN gain control of those desires and get your dog to think through and chose a more desirable behavior.

For strong instinctual behaviors, I think the use of Premack Priciple works the best. Premack uses a higher-probability behavior to reinforce a lower-probability behavior. Sitting or heeling at side is never going to be more desirable (read: low probability) to the dog than chasing after small prey animals (high probability), but you can use the chasing prey (or a variation thereof) to reinforce the sitting at side. Thus making the behavior you prefer trump the behavior they prefer.

I'll quote this from another thread that both you and Celeste were part of
Celesteandthebullies wrote:Read after "BE THE BROCCOLI" and it'll give you an idea of what premack is.
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/shodd ... ce-premack

Since my two, particularly Dakota are both very high prey drive I use it a lot. It's saved my butt in many situations. We'll go down to the field, he spots a Killdeer (bird) and goes "OMG OMG MOM" I have him heel, and "Yes!" he tears off after it. Comes back when it hits the sky, or I could call him back. But the nice thing is, no need for treats, therefore it can save your butt when you're in a tighter situation and possibly in over your head.

I also like to have him heel, mark it, he goes off, call him half way there, he spins on his face, comes back. "Yes!" goes after it again.



edit: after re-reading I realize the other woman is saying you can "train out" an instinctual behavior, not you. Which puts the onus on you to prove the negative, which is more difficult. And I believe you COULD "train out" the desire to perform an instinctual behavior, through abuse. If you you use aversives strong enough it just might work, through learned helplessness. But like I said, that's not humane training.


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