Negative Reinforcement

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Amie
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Negative Reinforcement

Postby Amie » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:29 pm

I have a few examples already, but I'd like a list of negative reinforcement that doesn't involve positive punishment. For example, a dog coming in from the rain for peeing in the appropriate spot, not the collar tightens when he pulls, but loosens when he stops pulling, if that makes sense.

Can you help me come up with some? (Coming up with some that don't involve punishment is tricky!)

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Re: Negative Reinforcement

Postby PITtsburgher » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:43 pm

Would you count having to sit nicely before coming out of the crate when the owner gets home? The crate is not a punishment, but the waiting-to-come-say-hi-to-mom is "unpleasant" I guess.

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Re: Negative Reinforcement

Postby MarMar » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:06 pm

Pushing down on a dog's butt until he sits? I have a really hard time separating positive punishment from negative reinforcement because in most cases at least SOMETHING is added to the dog in order to create the opportunity to take it away...so for example if you're using a shock collar to train a dog to sit, you shock until they sit and the relief from the shock (negative) increases the behavior of sitting (reinforcement). But you could also say that the application of the shock (positive) decreases the behavior of standing (or whatever else the dog does that's not sitting...punishment). I don't think I can really figure it out lol
I do think negative reinforcement might be the scariest of the quadrants..

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Re: Negative Reinforcement

Postby LizIs » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:41 pm

I'm not a trainer so I'm not 100% sure about the differences between NR and PP, etc. So correct me if I'm wrong and my example is way off the mark. I'm not sure if this fits, I think it could go either way?

My Parson Russel mix Ziggy used to be TERRIBLE about barking for attention. True to terrier form, he was also persistent as hell. Ignoring and waiting for him to stop didn't work at all. If he could see your eyes open he'd just increase the barking 10x over. And he could keep it up for a loooooong time. Finally I'd had it.

Any time he barked for attention, I'd play dead. In a chair, at the first bark I'd slump over, eyes closed and be totally still. If I was standing I'd do the same (but stay standing, I wasn't about to go crashing to the floor). And I wouldn't wake up until the barking stopped. Other forms of trying to get my attention were fine. He could nose my legs, paw at my feet, etc. But the first time he barked at me I'd "die" and he was SOL for attention. He caught onto that really quickly and to this day he rarely barks for attention. If he does all I have to do is close my eyes and turn my head and he steps back and stops almost immediately. He didn't transfer that to any other forms of barking. He still barks at the doorbell, while chasing critters in the yard, etc. But he figured out that barking AT mommy makes her DIE.

So basically barking makes the lack of attention even worse BUT the cessation of barking gets him what he wants. I'm not sure which way he took it. This is confusing! lol

Am I abusive for messing with his head like that? I feel kind bad but it worked so well :dunno:

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Amie
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Re: Negative Reinforcement

Postby Amie » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:53 pm

MarMar wrote:Pushing down on a dog's butt until he sits? I have a really hard time separating positive punishment from negative reinforcement because in most cases at least SOMETHING is added to the dog in order to create the opportunity to take it away...so for example if you're using a shock collar to train a dog to sit, you shock until they sit and the relief from the shock (negative) increases the behavior of sitting (reinforcement). But you could also say that the application of the shock (positive) decreases the behavior of standing (or whatever else the dog does that's not sitting...punishment). I don't think I can really figure it out lol
I do think negative reinforcement might be the scariest of the quadrants..


It IS tough! I'm currently writing curriculum for our second level of classes and plan to focus on each of the four quadrants a week (well, it's a six week class - week 1 is classical conditioning, then weeks 2 - 5 are each a quadrant, and week 6 is the test)

Negative is to subtract and reinforcement is to increase behavior - so negative reinforcement subtracts something from the environment to increase the likelyhood a behavior will occur.

Likewise, positive is to add and punishment reduces behavior, so positive punishment is something added to the environment that decreases a behavior.

In your example, pushing down on the butt would probably be negative reinforcement in that the pressure is removed when he sits to increase the likelyhood that he'll sit (whereas you aren't really decreasing the likelyhood that he'll stand) but you're still adding the pressure, and I'm trying to avoid examples where you added the unpleasantness yourself (because those can be confused too easily with positive punishment). Hmmm....

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Re: Negative Reinforcement

Postby Shearaha1 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:07 pm

Isn't BAT primarily NR? In that once the desired behavior is given the dog is allowed to move away or the trigger moves away. I should mention I haven't gone all that in-depth when it comes to BAT.

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Re: Negative Reinforcement

Postby MissKitty » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:26 pm

Shearaha1 wrote:Isn't BAT primarily NR? In that once the desired behavior is given the dog is allowed to move away or the trigger moves away. I should mention I haven't gone all that in-depth when it comes to BAT.


^ I am pretty sure you are right on that one....

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Re: Negative Reinforcement

Postby MarMar » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:47 pm

There have been some really great discussions on this aspect of BAT...quickly gets very technical. But yes. many people do assert that it is -R. However I don't know really if I agree, although that might just be because I like BAT. It may be because BAT gives the dog a lot more opportunities to make choices. (It's in CAT though that the trigger moves away from the dog).

I just read a great blog entry on quadrants and how they're all interrelated and of COURSE i can't remember where it was! Dangit!

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Re: Negative Reinforcement

Postby Celesteandthebullies » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:41 pm

I would not consider BAT to be NR, since something positive is being added when they stop. I do not recall anything about removal.


CAT is NR, dog reacts, when dog stops reacting, the stimuli leaves/gives room. Removal of the stimuli = Negative, and is reinforcing the dog for not reacting = reinforcement.

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Re: Negative Reinforcement

Postby Celesteandthebullies » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:49 pm

http://www.wagville.com/Dog%20Reactivity.pdf

In CAT, “Constructional Aggression Treatment,” rather than treat and praise your dog for not reacting to another dog, you reward your dog for calm behavior by removing the other dog.


BAT, “Behavior Adjustment Training,” differs from CAT in that if you make a mistake and your dog reacts, instead of waiting it out and letting your dog react you abort the trial by asking for a different behavior and rewarding it, removing the other dog, or allowing your dog to leave. Also, in BAT the reward for good behavior is sometimes the other dog leaving but is also often allowing your dog to leave the situation, which some trainers feel gives your dog more control.



Well if that's true then I would consider BAT to be NR

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Re: Negative Reinforcement

Postby Poohs Dad » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:13 am

Amie wrote:
Likewise, positive is to add and punishment reduces behavior, so positive punishment is something added to the environment that decreases a behavior.

.


Under that definition, would a motion activated sprinkler in your garden be positive punishment?...to keep said critter out

or a vibration mat left on the couch to keep them off...

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Amie
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Re: Negative Reinforcement

Postby Amie » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:23 am

Yes, both of those are positive punishment. But positive punishment is (unfortunately?) easy to come up with. It's negative reinforcement that's tricky!

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Re: Negative Reinforcement

Postby Mooresmajestic » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:19 am

This came to me at 3am, so please pardon my grammar...

Like this?
When teaching a left turn in the heel position
Dog and handler are heeling in a straight line, handler makes an abrupt left turn.
Handler exaggerates the movement of their right leg by bringing the knee up higher.
Handler walks into dog. The exaggerated movement of handlers leg/knee will make contact with dog's head/shoulder (if said dog did not turn in time).
Dog learns to watch/anticipate handler to avoid contact with handler's knee.

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Re: Negative Reinforcement

Postby MissKitty » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:04 pm

Mooresmajestic wrote:This came to me at 3am, so please pardon my grammar...

Like this?
When teaching a left turn in the heel position
Dog and handler are heeling in a straight line, handler makes an abrupt left turn.
Handler exaggerates the movement of their right leg by bringing the knee up higher.
Handler walks into dog. The exaggerated movement of handlers leg/knee will make contact with dog's head/shoulder (if said dog did not turn in time).
Dog learns to watch/anticipate handler to avoid contact with handler's knee.


That would be positive punishment, an addition of something unpleasant (getting kneed) decreases the behavior (dog continuing to go straight).

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Re: Negative Reinforcement

Postby Mooresmajestic » Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:59 pm

Ok. Humm...

Releasing a dog from a restraint/hold when the dog stops struggling...?


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