Discussion topic: The use of training aids

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Mooresmajestic
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Discussion topic: The use of training aids

Postby Mooresmajestic » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:58 pm

Many years ago, I learned a few important lessons from a wise horse-trainer that still apply today, even though I changed the species I work with to dogs. Since the subject came up in conversation today, I figured I would share and hopefully generate a good discussion on this topic.

"No piece of equipment is either good or bad, it is always neutral. The application of the equipment can be good or bad, but only because the rider (handler) chooses how that object is used."

"There is nothing wrong with using a "tool" as a training aid for a short period of time to help you achieve a desired result. If that "tool" is still required to achieve results after the desired skill/behavior has been taught, it ceases to be a training aid and is now considered a "crutch". The only way to turn the "tool" into a "crutch" is to teach the skill/behavior incorrectly or incompletely. If that skill/behavior was taught correctly, the "tool" is no longer necessary and becomes just another object at the bottom of your tack-box."

What do these statements mean to you?
Did either (or both) statement impact or change your opinion of a type of training equipment?
Would you consider using a piece of equipment that you consider(d) wrong after reading these statements?
Will either of these statements change your training program? Is so, how?
Is there anything you would like to add?

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BrokenAquarian
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Re: Discussion topic: The use of training aids

Postby BrokenAquarian » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:36 pm

Prong collars are the #1 object that comes to mind when reading your post. That is something often turned into a crutch.

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Mooresmajestic
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Re: Discussion topic: The use of training aids

Postby Mooresmajestic » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:46 pm

That is exactly the piece of equipment we were discussing. The dog our conversation was about is 100% spot-on obedience wise with the collar on (even if the handler never touches it), but can't follow even the most basic of commands when not wearing it. The collar has become more than a crutch, it has crossed over into the life-support catagory.

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Amie
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Re: Discussion topic: The use of training aids

Postby Amie » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:35 am

I disagree with a lot of those statements.

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Mooresmajestic
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Re: Discussion topic: The use of training aids

Postby Mooresmajestic » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:24 pm

Please explain Amie. What do you disagree with and why?

Don't worry about offending me, I wouldn't have posted this if I didn't want to hear other opinions.

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Discussion topic: The use of training aids

Postby BabyReba » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:45 pm

at this point in my life, i think prong collars are completely unnecessary and i am almost shocked at myself that i ever relied on them as a tool at all. if anything, they hampered my ability to teach a dog. yeah, they "worked," but i never learned anything and i can't think of a single thing i have ever taught a dog that they would be useful for now. therefore, i personally disagree with the second half of the equation.

i also 100 percent disagree that many tools are "neutral." prongs, chokes and e-collars work for a reason: they are designed to be NOT neutral. by design, they are created to cause discomfort, even at the lowest levels of use. that isn't neutral at all.

i do not hate people who use the tools, and i have used almost every tool in the book at some point in my own evolution. but i do hate the language games people play to make themselves feel better about tools they use. if you choose to use a prong and it works, it does not work because it is neutral, but because the dog finds it uncomfortable at best, painful at worst. i wish peopel would just make peace with that if that is how they want to train.

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Re: Discussion topic: The use of training aids

Postby Amie » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:10 pm

:goodpost: What she said. :D

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Celesteandthebullies
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Re: Discussion topic: The use of training aids

Postby Celesteandthebullies » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:31 pm

:goodpost: Sums up my thoughts as well.

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Re: Discussion topic: The use of training aids

Postby MarMar » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:35 pm

Mostly what BabyReba said. The first statement especially: some tools are not at all neutral, they are designed and work because they cause pain or discomfort. I've used those tools myself also. I've never understood why people seem to have much less trouble relying long term on a corrective tool than on food! If I HAVE to pick a "crutch" I'd rather have one that makes my interactions with my dogs more pleasant than less pleasant.

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Re: Discussion topic: The use of training aids

Postby UnconventionalLove » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:35 pm

If people all over the world are teaching their dogs without using pain, force, fear, intimidation, or discomfort, then there is no justification for it. It it lack of knowledge and skill.

http://dogslifetraining.net/whatever-wo ... r-dog/387/


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