New protocol in prong collars

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Rumpley
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New protocol in prong collars

Postby Rumpley » Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:48 am

I was just reading a recent thread about fitting prongs, and I wanted to add this two bits.

I was at a recent seminar with a well known "compulsion" trainer from Europe (no one told me he was 100% compulsion until I got there...), and he said that now all prong collars are to be fitted not so tight anymore at all. Not saying they should be hanging and flapping in the wind, but no more firm, prongs in all the time.

They NO LONGER fit the collars snugly right under the neck, as the constant pressure desensitizes the dog to the area around it's neck. It's the theory "would you notice your belt getting tighter if at first it fitted loosely around your middle, or it was always cutting you off anyways in the middle?"

This totally makes sense to me. Thoughts anyone?

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Leslie H
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Postby Leslie H » Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:14 am

I'll confess that I keep Xanny's prong slightly looser than commonly recommended, but I also rarely need to correct her. Typically there is no pressure on the prong.

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Naplis Slim
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Postby Naplis Slim » Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:04 am

and you guys keep these collars on them all the time?

Rose_Red

Postby Rose_Red » Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:20 am

They shouldn't be wearing these collars long enough to desensitize their necks IMO. They should only be for walking and training.

EmilyS

no

Postby EmilyS » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:15 am

Naplis Slim wrote:and you guys keep these collars on them all the time?



no, too dangerous

just keep them on when needed, and when you are with the dog

Rose_Red

Postby Rose_Red » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:25 am

The only thing that should be on a dog at all times is a nylon collar with a proper id tag. My Rosa had a strong leather protector collar for our walks and once we get inside I used to take that off and leave her with just her leopard print nylon and faux fur collar. Both had ID tags and her rabies tag.

Diane Jessup

re

Postby Diane Jessup » Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:43 pm

Agreed 100%!!!

If the collar is SO tight that the dog can feel the prongs, that would not be right at all. And yes, some compulsion trainers DO put them on that tight, because, in many cases, the prongs have been sharpened to fine points so when they jerk, they cannot have them slip at all, or the dog's skin is cut... Course stuff like that is hardly ever openly discussed (with the exception of some SchH USA seminas... :roll: )

The prong should be SNUG behind the ears, but NOT tight. If it is loose, it DOES turn and hurts a bit more. DOn't get me wrong, what I'm talking about is these huge, honking sized collars that are down around the shoulders... That is just wrong.

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Rumpley
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Postby Rumpley » Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:45 pm

A prong should be on ONLY on for training sessions, or for walks, when accompanied by owner. It is not a safe collar to be wearing as a general all the time collar.

I like the idea of a slightly looser prong. It was equally effective for corrections.

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Postby Rumpley » Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:46 pm

Heh Diane,

How did you know it was "Schutzhund???" lol Man, the seminar would have made your blood boil. 100% compulsion is certainly not my thing.

Diane Jessup

re

Postby Diane Jessup » Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:05 pm

Luckily I have lived to see the fad of "positive" replacing the fad of ugly, ugly force. I am not naive, I know it will always swing back and forth as half ass trainers try and fail at a method, blame the method, and want to try another.

Hey, by the way, I heard Ivan's Malinois got run at a trial and the other scored 80 in bitework. Do you know which trial that was at? I've heard the are really nervy dogs which is why they show well - if they stay on the field...

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Postby Rumpley » Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:03 pm

Sorry I don't know. I was only at this seminar through word of mouth, not because I compete in Schutzhund. I am interested in learning more about this sport though because it encompasses the "complete dog" - obedience, tracking and bite work, very well rounded.

I can say though that if this had been my only taste of Schutzhund, I would have run out of there sick to my stomach. :yucky:

I'm thanking my lucky stars that I know some people compete without pure compulsion. I spent the entire afternoon watching dogs screaming, being hung by the end of prong collars, or being stretched like a rack tied to a tree with their necks in prongs, when they didn't even know basic commands yet. It was hideous and this was a "big money" trainer putting on the seminar...very sad indeed.

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agree on the USA comment

Postby tuktown » Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:42 pm

I worked for the one time assitant coach for US USA team, Howard Rodriguez out of California K-9 in Burbank (prior to him loosing his lease after a number of very dodgey incidents :clap ). It was standard to use prongs on whippets and english bulldogs. Not the best given their physiological structure. We used to have a line of 6 or more shock collars sitting on a desk for their puppy training classes. Labs in general were a problem owing to their lack of sensitivity to physical correction. Helped grind down prongs. Asked to assist in setting dogs up for failure and hence give the correction - remember if your not correcting then there's no reinforcement. No reinforcement, no learning. :crybaby: Proofing the dogs with pain. That was nearly 3 years ago. I think I made it for 4 months. Nearly bitten a couple of times by expensive titled German imports. Met a huge (HUGE) number of people since then that claim to be positive in their approach but behave in a very different manner. All through protection sports and primarily Schutzhund. Tend to go through dogs like a hot knife through butter. Just look how many competitions have shock collars as prizes. Ever heard people talking about how great Godfirei Dildei et al are but then say something like "But who has 3 years to teach a dog to bite" etc etc. 'Scuse the rant but I've heard the prong thing/shock thing so often. Listen to how many people talk about their dogs becoming Trial Savvy at the various events. If judges really get back on track about points for Attitude then these loosers will be just that. But hey, the dog whisperer is giving the old turn-and-jerk method one last hurrah and it's reaching millions each week.

Like I said, sorry about the rant but it came on with the 'science of prong technology' post. I'll go walk the dog now.

Diane Jessup

re

Postby Diane Jessup » Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:11 am

Easy Tuk! I feel for you. I am SOOOO lucky to finally be in a schutzhund club with an excellent trainer who works with the dogs, not against them. Won the National schutzhund competition last year too... :))

I left ring sport because of the rampant abuse I had to sit and endure every session and it was just not worth it... those people are so depressing. They just don't get it.

Tri-Tronics and Dog-tra have just about everysport in bed with them now. I know that there is still some venues where it is frowned upon, and I believe there is one big herding magazine which refuses shock collar ads - but the rest - shocking collars are HUGE money now.

Funny thing is, I have not seen a collar work on a really tough dog yet.


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