-Remote shock/correction collars?-

Tricks, obedience, behavior, and more.
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Red
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Postby Red » Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:59 am

People use e-collars because they work.


People use e-collars because they are reinforcing to THEM.The dog stops a behavior right off the bat (sure, it hurts or it is at least unpleasant) and the handlers gets reinforced, and learn that punishment and aversion in general take care of things.It doesn't, it mostly stops behaviors when they are happening or when the aversive tool is present.A dog that gets punished for lunging at another dog, for example, might stop because of some consequences.But emotions are still there, they don't disappear because of a shock or a jerk on a prong.
It is reinforcement that drives behaviors and if people tried to understand the principles of it e-collars would not be used so much.There are other ways, especially for behaviors that are really minor, but they require some work and efforts and people are not fond of the idea.

Cboy, if you ever want to try a head collar (gentle leader, halti etc) feel free to PM me.I think you are about 2 hours from me and maybe we can even meet, perhaps halfway.A head collar is a tool that gives you physical control of your dog.It is aversive only when used inappropriately.A regular flat collar can be more aversive than a head collar used properly, especially with people who like to jerk the leash, to "correct" a dog.Your trainer can probably show you how to introduce it to the dog and what not, as long as he does not use it for corrections.
You can reach your goal (no jumping on people) on a flat collar, easily.But if you are stuck or you are getting frustrated then the head collar might help you a bit.It is only some momentary help, you still have to do your part.

For now...what drives your dog is social interaction.Nothing wrong with it.Your boy is excited when he sees people and you want that.But you also want him to be able to greet properly.Each time he made it to jump on people he was reinforced.People probably talked to him, pet him, or just gave him some kind of attention.Dogs do what works for them and for him jumping up gave him valuable rewards.So now you have to work harder to channel that behavior into something more appropriate.
Since social interaction is what he wants, use it at your advantage.Teach your dog to touch the tip of your hand, or your palm, on cue.It is very simple, you offer your hand and feed the dog when his nose is on your hand or finger.When the dog gets it and keep offering the behavior when he sees your hand put it on cue, using a word you like."Touch", for example.Each time your dog comes to you for attention, ask him to touch your fingers so the behavior is reinforced over and over again.Then, when you meet people, ask them to use that cue before the dog approaches them.Now it is a well known cue, and the dog is offered the opportunity to greet that way, instead of jumping up.It is much easier to prevent "bad" behaviors if they are replaced with something else the dog can perform.Also you are not taking away what motivates him (which can cause frustration and an increase of the behavior), you just help him behaving in a way that is acceptable for everyone.If he touches someone else's fingers his feet are on the floor and he can then get pet.It is hard to get anywhere if you are in a place like Petsmart so start working in a more calmer place where people is most likely to help you out and you are not worried about accidents.Maybe have some friends meet the dog, out of your house, at a park of wherever it is possible.It is more fair to the dog to set him up for success by choosing the right environment.Then you can move to busy places.

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Cboy1
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Postby Cboy1 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:01 am

Wow thanks dude that was really resourceful, and yeah it's true I used the e-collar because it works and so far was the only thing that's worked for him. I talked to my trainer last weekend during a session about what was said on this forum, and the only thing he could say was people just have a misunderstanding about them. Keep in mind that I only used it for one 1hr training session and the results were amazing, he calmed down sooo much but at the same time he was still his sweet, friendly self only without the jumping. I now know that it was wrong of me from what all of you said so far but it's the only thing that worked for me at the time, also may I remind all of you that I never shocked him, I only used the high pitched noise to correct him so I see no harm in that at all esp. if it's for training/correcting methods?

I've also tried the head collars as well during one session and he really didn't seem to like it at all, it seemed to be really uncomfortable so we took it off because we didn't want to stress him. And yeah I'd love to meet up with you to socialize Bruno some more outside of Petsmart because around here there are only two other guys with Pits. From what I noticed they neglect their dogs a lot lately, I used to see their dogs once and awhile at the school park down the street but I never see them anymore, and one of the Pit's sorta just became a garage dog? I'm in 562/714 Orange County by the way and I'm so down to hangout. But umm right now he's wearing a harness only because it's the only thing that I've had so far that doesn't choke him? Before he had a regular collar and when he gets worked up and overly hyper he would always choke himself so I got a harness because the trainer said it would be better for him and so far he's been a lot better with no more red eyes.

And yeah I've done the whole treat in your hand technique and it's working. Had a few friends come over last weekend to play with Bruno, and as they were petting him I kept a hold of a treat as he was nibbling it. But I'll be sure to use that method more often at Petsmart or anywhere while he's with me. Also could his energy and jumping be a problem because he isn't fixed yet? He's going to be neutered on the 21rst of this month so hopefully maybe that'll calm him down some more? Also he'll be 7 1/2 months old before he goes into surgery and I know it's recommended that they be 4-6 months but the place I'm going to is very reputable and has a long waiting list, do you guys think that's a problem for him or no?

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Postby crazy4pits » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:32 am

No dog likes the head collar when you first put it on them. You didn't try it long enough to give it a chance. Gizmo tried to get his off for a couple of weeks. Same with my other dog. They acted like fools, flipping out and all that stuff. I just kept encouraging them with treats and they don't bother it now. I tried Gizmo with his off and well he was not comfortable so it went back on.
The Gentle Leader is not just for pulling and jumping. It has a calming effect on most dogs once they are used to wearing it.

It takes sometime and again consistancy for them to get used to it.

The people on here do understand an E-Collar. I am a trainer at PetSmart.
Your trainer should NO that a dog is not gonna accept the Gentle Leader as soon as you put it on.
I'm sorry but IMO you want things to happen fast and change immediately and that is NOT how training works. Once he learns all his behaviors, you will have to do those behaviors everyday for the rest of his life.

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Red
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Postby Red » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:32 am

Also he'll be 7 1/2 months old before he goes into surgery and I know it's recommended that they be 4-6 months but the place I'm going to is very reputable and has a long waiting list, do you guys think that's a problem for him or no?


No, nothing wrong with waiting till that age.

Let me know when you want to meet.I hate LA, people cannot drive there so perhaps we can meet half away somewhere.

But umm right now he's wearing a harness only because it's the only thing that I've had so far that doesn't choke him?


That is fine but remember that dogs are facilitated by wearing harnesses.It is easier for them to lean their chest on them and pull.Work on focus, by teaching him eye contact.If you want him to enjoy a walk on a harness there is nothing wrong with it but you still need for the dog to check in with you.Teaching eye contact is so simple and you can start in the house, where there are no distraction.First you reward any voluntary eye contact the dog offers you.Every time it happens, reinforce.You can be sitting on the couch watching TV, the dog comes by you and exchange eye contact and you treat.You can be in the kitchen doing your businesses and the dog walks in and look up at you, reinforce.Once the dog offers this more and more introduce the vocal cue "watch", right before he starts looking at you, and then make sure you reinforce with a treat and vocal praise.This needs to be done in the house first, for the dog understand the behavior.It is much easier than doing it on a walk.When you have a solid "watch" in the house (which means the dog follows up with the verbal cure) then you can move to the yard.Then down your street and so on.Just don't expect the dog to start off watching you when there are a million distractions outside.That is for later, distractions need to be slowly introduced.
On your walks, after you have worked at home, you will call your dog name and ask him to "watch" you.Praise and give him a "free" commands so he can go ahead and keep walking.You will notice that your dog will start to offer that behavior on his own and check with you, because looking at you means good thing and also because you will reward him by letting him walk again.Eye contact is extremely helpful.

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Postby crazy4pits » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:37 am

I missed something you said. I am glad the treat in hand is working.
Make sure he is getting a lot of exercise, a tired dog is a good dog. So maybe you can try to give him a good work out before class.

As far as neutering calming him down, there is a debate with that it may help with marking, mounthing, wondering to find a female. But as far as him being hyper, it may not effect him at all. I have had people tell me neutering has helped and I have had others say no it hasn't.

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Postby Finnigan » Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:33 am

Ack! :yucky:

I can't beleive a "trainer" would recommend a shock collar for an undesirable behavior (jumping up) that can easily be replaced for a desirable behavior (standing or sitting while greeting people).

How about good old fashioned training through mutual respect and communication). If this young dog is easily distracted, maybe training in a place full of people is too soon. Need to emphasize that a) the dog needs time to understand what is expected, and b) time to develop self control through practice and 100% consistency, meaning, never allowing the dog to jump up on people in the first place.

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Postby Hockinsonj » Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:04 pm

ive never used one for training but ive got the system that keeps them in your yard and i know it works really well just hate that the batteries in the collar part wear so fast..

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Cboy1
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Postby Cboy1 » Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:40 am

Red wrote:
No, nothing wrong with waiting till that age.

Let me know when you want to meet.I hate LA, people cannot drive there so perhaps we can meet half away somewhere.


Yeah I'm down to meet anytime let's say after the holidays/new years. Which is only about 3 weeks away, so atleast by then he'll have more training done.

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Postby KadillacGrrl » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:54 pm

Courtney, according to Leerburg, the Dogtra is the best... but he goes on to say Innotek and Tri-Tronics are good too.

I'm looking at the Innotek IUT-300 Both girls have decided that when they are offlead at the ranch... fence fighting with the neighbor's dog and/or cattle herding are far FAR more stimulating that recall. Punks.

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Postby Odnarb » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:40 pm

KadillacGrrl wrote:Courtney, according to Leerburg, the Dogtra is the best... but he goes on to say Innotek and Tri-Tronics are good too.

I'm looking at the Innotek IUT-300 Both girls have decided that when they are offlead at the ranch... fence fighting with the neighbor's dog and/or cattle herding are far FAR more stimulating that recall. Punks.



I would avoid the Innotek collar. I've had nothing but trouble with them, and have heard the same from others. Dogtra is the way to go. The Dogtra 200NCP Gold is relatively inexpensive, and more than enough collar for most dogs.

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Postby mommy2kane » Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:55 pm

Odnarb wrote:
KadillacGrrl wrote:Courtney, according to Leerburg, the Dogtra is the best... but he goes on to say Innotek and Tri-Tronics are good too.

I'm looking at the Innotek IUT-300 Both girls have decided that when they are offlead at the ranch... fence fighting with the neighbor's dog and/or cattle herding are far FAR more stimulating that recall. Punks.



I would avoid the Innotek collar. I've had nothing but trouble with them, and have heard the same from others. Dogtra is the way to go. The Dogtra 200NCP Gold is relatively inexpensive, and more than enough collar for most dogs.


I haven't had experience with different brands as I only have the Dogtra 200NCP, but I've had no problems with it. I've used mine with trainer recommendation/supervision. However, it does also have a vibrate option on it. That might work as an attention-getter.

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Postby Odnarb » Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:03 pm

mommy2kane wrote:I haven't had experience with different brands as I only have the Dogtra 200NCP, but I've had no problems with it. I've used mine with trainer recommendation/supervision. However, it does also have a vibrate option on it. That might work as an attention-getter.



I love the vibrate function. I use that more than anything on it, just as a shoulder tap reminder.

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Postby jazminesgranny » Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:55 pm

We have shock collars for one reason.. when we first moved to Nevada my older dogs were wild ran off no training.. They were my son's who gave them to me when he went into the Navy. My husband and I took them out to run in the desert (before we knew how poorly trained they were) and the dogs bolted... took us hours to find them and when we did they were with a coyote.

Coyotes will lure away domestics to the pack and kill them. So we got the collars, my brother in law has trained his hunters with them and spent ours teaching my husband and I how to use them, We have a trionics collars. The only time it gets put on Jazmine is when we go to the desert to run, the older two no longer where them we have worked very hard with them and they are very very good dogs. NOW.. Jazmine has been shocked 1x that was after she didnt return with a voice call or a warning buzz. SHe now returns everytime but due to the risks I have her wear it.

Jazmine is jumping on us too but I will not put the shock collar on her for this reason, we will work with her and the trainer to get it to stop.

Good luck

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Postby Daphnesmom » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:54 pm

Stephanie - I use the Dogtra 200 Gold as well, after being thoroughly trained through a Sit Means Sit trainer who went through the levels with Daphne and gave me the minimum range where she would actually respond. I also love the vibrate option, I use that alot in the house to remind her about not cleaning the cats so vigorously.

I think it's a great tool, in the right hands with the right training. All of Daphne's commands are communicated through it ... place, off, up, down, out, no cross (for front doors or garage doors that might be open), etc. She doesn't seem to mind it and I operate it on her lowest response level...

It would be pretty useful for your scenario....since you don't have to be standing right there, you can spy on them from a pretty good half mile away and they'll get the idea.

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Postby KadillacGrrl » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:32 pm

Thanks for the recs, everyone...


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