A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Discuss Breed Specific Legislation and local county laws on pit bull ownership.
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highflyergirl19
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Re: A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Postby highflyergirl19 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:10 am

I agree that the backyard breeder normally treats their dogs like most people out there do and it's the people that they sell to that end up abusing the dogs. If you eliminate the breeding from these breeders than you eliminate the abuse and abandonment done by the people who buy from them.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be hard to enforce or expensive but an effort does need to be made.

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Re: A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Postby SnowKoi2010 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:15 am

LVUFreddie wrote:
SnowKoi2010 wrote:I honestly think that owning a dog is a privileged like driving a car. Because of the abuse levels out there, I think that a permit or something of the work enabling you to not only become a breeder but to actually own a animal would be a wonderful Idea. Have like a 3 strike deal and once your permit has been taken away from you forever can no longer own a animal. You would have this permit with you at all times, like a DL or state ID. And if you are caught even with a friends dog, without the proper identification showing that you can own one, then you can face charges and fines. You also have to show the permit at shelters and have to have it to work with or around animals.

@back at the Breeding thing, You would only be able to obtain a Breeding permit if you can show that you have a permit to own a dog and that the dogs you own have papers and titles. If you get caught breeding without a permit, All animals will be removed and you will be fined.

but this is all IMO in my own little world. I think it would help a lot D:
Yeah lets throw away billions of tax dollars making sure that all the little pitties and kitty cats are taken care of and have happy lives,meanwhile we don't have enough money to pay social workers to protect little children from parents that beat,rape,whore out,starve and neglect them.


They already do that. Its called a Social Worker.

Anyways, a breeding permit would be great, but there has to be a basis that shows that you are able to own and take care of these dogs and that your dogs are not 'mutts' and have titles and papers. I would rather them spend my tax money in forcing out bad breeders then banning a dog breed because of some BYB.

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Re: A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Postby APBT<3er » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:18 am

LVUFreddie wrote: It may seem like a simple enough task,but when you get into it in depth,there would be a million different variables that would have to be addressed.What kind of food is acceptable for a dog? how much space does each dog require to be comfortable(this would obviously vary with size,which would take forever to figure out for every breed out there)What breeds should be allowed to breed? How many of each breed per year? how many litters would be acceptable per bitch,per year,what health testing would be required?what titles would prove a dog worthy of breeding? Which organization's titles would be recognized? How many litters could each breeder legally turn out each year? Would it vary from breed to breed? Some breeds are considerably rare compared to others,Since there are a million and one GSD breeders should we put perdic halts on all breeding of GSD's until the numbers decline? should people be given incentives to produce more litters of less popular breeds?

See where this is going? I could go on and on like that forever.


Something sensible...
There are usually A LOT of variables to be considered when implementing any law - like anything else, this would take a lot of research. The responsible breeders already know what they're doing - I doubt they agree on EVERYTHING but I would imagine among them, a reasonable decision could be made in regards to 3/4 of the paragraph above. Please do not ask how we would go through picking the good from the bad breeders, - I think most people frequenting this post are well aware of the differences between good and bad breeders. Veterinarians could also be polled to answer the rest of the questions you posed. No GSD breeding should not stop altogether just because someone on the corner of Y and Z decided to pair up two dogs with unknown lineage and history. An average dog's life cycle is what.. 8 - 12 years, if all BYBs stopped and left it to the professionals, we would notice a big change in the problem fairly quickly.

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LVUFreddie
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Re: A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Postby LVUFreddie » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:12 am

*sigh* Has the though ever occurred to any of you that the average person just doesn't really care that much about the plight of animals? I'm not saying that they condone abuse or neglect of them,just that there are more important things in this world.If I could save one person from a life of misery or save 10,000 animals from being PTS,I would choose the person every time.Instead of using money to regulate animal breeding/ownership why not take that money and help some kid who wants to make something of themselves but can't because they don't have the money to go to school?
And I'm the one here with the problem,yeah,ok.Go ahead ban me if it will make you all feel better,I have real things to worry about other than what a bunch of AR freaks think about me.

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Re: A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Postby LVUFreddie » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:16 am

APBT<3er wrote:
LVUFreddie wrote: It may seem like a simple enough task,but when you get into it in depth,there would be a million different variables that would have to be addressed.What kind of food is acceptable for a dog? how much space does each dog require to be comfortable(this would obviously vary with size,which would take forever to figure out for every breed out there)What breeds should be allowed to breed? How many of each breed per year? how many litters would be acceptable per bitch,per year,what health testing would be required?what titles would prove a dog worthy of breeding? Which organization's titles would be recognized? How many litters could each breeder legally turn out each year? Would it vary from breed to breed? Some breeds are considerably rare compared to others,Since there are a million and one GSD breeders should we put perdic halts on all breeding of GSD's until the numbers decline? should people be given incentives to produce more litters of less popular breeds?

See where this is going? I could go on and on like that forever.


Something sensible...
There are usually A LOT of variables to be considered when implementing any law - like anything else, this would take a lot of research. The responsible breeders already know what they're doing - I doubt they agree on EVERYTHING but I would imagine among them, a reasonable decision could be made in regards to 3/4 of the paragraph above. Please do not ask how we would go through picking the good from the bad breeders, - I think most people frequenting this post are well aware of the differences between good and bad breeders. Veterinarians could also be polled to answer the rest of the questions you posed. No GSD breeding should not stop altogether just because someone on the corner of Y and Z decided to pair up two dogs with unknown lineage and history. An average dog's life cycle is what.. 8 - 12 years, if all BYBs stopped and left it to the professionals, we would notice a big change in the problem fairly quickly.
So who is to define what separates a "good breeder" from a "bad breeder"?

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Re: A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Postby FBODGRL » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:33 am

I think before anyone could think about raining in the BYB's the puppy mill problem would need to handled first.


LVUFreddie wrote:*sigh* Has the though ever occurred to any of you that the average person just doesn't really care that much about the plight of animals? I'm not saying that they condone abuse or neglect of them,just that there are more important things in this world.If I could save one person from a life of misery or save 10,000 animals from being PTS,I would choose the person every time.Instead of using money to regulate animal breeding/ownership why not take that money and help some kid who wants to make something of themselves but can't because they don't have the money to go to school?
And I'm the one here with the problem,yeah,ok.Go ahead ban me if it will make you all feel better,I have real things to worry about other than what a bunch of AR freaks think about me.



You could always just leave...no one is forcing you to be here.
LVUFreddie wrote:
LVUFreddie wrote:So who is to define what separates a "good breeder" from a "bad breeder"?


Try reading the thread about what a reputable breeder is.

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Re: A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Postby LVUFreddie » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:19 am

FBODGRL wrote:I think before anyone could think about raining in the BYB's the puppy mill problem would need to handled first.


LVUFreddie wrote:*sigh* Has the though ever occurred to any of you that the average person just doesn't really care that much about the plight of animals? I'm not saying that they condone abuse or neglect of them,just that there are more important things in this world.If I could save one person from a life of misery or save 10,000 animals from being PTS,I would choose the person every time.Instead of using money to regulate animal breeding/ownership why not take that money and help some kid who wants to make something of themselves but can't because they don't have the money to go to school?
And I'm the one here with the problem,yeah,ok.Go ahead ban me if it will make you all feel better,I have real things to worry about other than what a bunch of AR freaks think about me.



You could always just leave...no one is forcing you to be here.
LVUFreddie wrote:So

LVUFreddie wrote:So who is to define what separates a "good breeder" from a "bad breeder"?


Try reading the thread about what a reputable breeder is.
so whoever wrote the thread on pit bull forum,on reputable breeders is the nationally recognized authority on the subject?
And why would I just leave? This place is extremely biased and one sided.People need to see different sides to things.You aren't educating anyone by getting rid of other ideas simply because the majority disagrees,that's called propaganda.

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Re: A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Postby FBODGRL » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:46 am

LVUFreddie wrote:
FBODGRL wrote:I think before anyone could think about raining in the BYB's the puppy mill problem would need to handled first.


LVUFreddie wrote:*sigh* Has the though ever occurred to any of you that the average person just doesn't really care that much about the plight of animals? I'm not saying that they condone abuse or neglect of them,just that there are more important things in this world.If I could save one person from a life of misery or save 10,000 animals from being PTS,I would choose the person every time.Instead of using money to regulate animal breeding/ownership why not take that money and help some kid who wants to make something of themselves but can't because they don't have the money to go to school?
And I'm the one here with the problem,yeah,ok.Go ahead ban me if it will make you all feel better,I have real things to worry about other than what a bunch of AR freaks think about me.



You could always just leave...no one is forcing you to be here.
LVUFreddie wrote:So

LVUFreddie wrote:So who is to define what separates a "good breeder" from a "bad breeder"?


Try reading the thread about what a reputable breeder is.
so whoever wrote the thread on pit bull forum,on reputable breeders is the nationally recognized authority on the subject?
And why would I just leave? This place is extremely biased and one sided.People need to see different sides to things.You aren't educating anyone by getting rid of other ideas simply because the majority disagrees,that's called propaganda.



You were the one saying you had better things to do. I could really care less what you do.

Actually no that is not just a pit bull forum thing...showing that you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Feel free to do research elsewhere on what an actual reputable breeder is and you will see where the information came from.

A lot of things actually do have a right and a wrong and the majority here usually agree with the right....just because you disagree with the majority doesn't make you right. It is really annoying to hear people talking about things they have no idea about and act as if it is fact and then promote something that is incorrect.

Oh and I don't need to see another angle I deal with enough ignorance in real life.

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Re: A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Postby ProudMommy77 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:01 am

I believe there are some mandatory spay and neuter laws in effect in a few places, and they are taking measures shut down puppy mills. And restrict the sale of dogs in pet stores. I would personally like to see more low cost spay and neuter clinics available to people, or even a sliding scale fee. Harrisburg did at one point have a free spay and neuter clinic for Pit Bulls. But, as far as I know that has since run out of money. The county I live in, has NO low cost spay and neuter available. Just my thoughts.

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Re: A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Postby randomroads » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:28 am

ProudMommy77 wrote:I believe there are some mandatory spay and neuter laws in effect in a few places, and they are taking measures shut down puppy mills. And restrict the sale of dogs in pet stores. I would personally like to see more low cost spay and neuter clinics available to people, or even a sliding scale fee. Harrisburg did at one point have a free spay and neuter clinic for Pit Bulls. But, as far as I know that has since run out of money. The county I live in, has NO low cost spay and neuter available. Just my thoughts.


This.

I'm also very uncomfortable with the idea of putting real restrictions on who gets to breed dogs based on pedigree and titles. There are people out there who use their dogs for hunting that have no titles and don't care about pedigrees as long as the dogs do the job right the first time. These people aren't breeding willy nilly, they put some thought into it to produce even better dogs. I suppose if push came to shove, if your idea of a breeding law forced these people to make a choice between feeding their family or going on welfare, they could turn to disreputable registries like the Continental Kennel Club.

Granted there aren't millions of people using dogs for a living like there are people on welfare, but there are enough people who do use them to put food on the table instead of sucking the teet of Uncle Sam for me to give pause to your idea.

There's also the pig problem. Many of the hog dogs that work in Florida and the southern hog region aren't titled, papered, or anything special at all except that they're damn good at catching pigs and keeping handlers safe. Many reputable breeders aren't going to be interested in selling their pups to hog hunters, since many of those dogs live short lives even with body armor.

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Re: A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Postby Mya&theSiebenDackels » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:38 am

We have a mandatory spay and neuter law of all dogs over 15 pounds in Memphis unless you have a license to breed your dogs and your dogs are registered with a legitimate registration(such as UKC, AKC, CKC etc.). I think it could be a lot better.

So far I have not seen a difference at all. Shelters are still overflowed with dogs and puppies and the newspaper is still full of breeders. At the Humane Society, we are getting in a lot of puppies right now. Just like ever other law in Memphis, they are not enforcing it. Another reason I know this is because Mya's crappy breeder is still breeding his American Bullies and I know they do not have a license to breed.

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Re: A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Postby FransterDoo » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:50 am

There are just too many variable rrgarding what is considered good husbandry. Vaccinations, feeding and housing all vary. Some of the best breeders for dogs in law enforcement run a purely kennel-based operation.

I personally, do not vaccinate beyond 1 yrs. old except rabies. What if new legislation requires me to do something that I believe is actually harmful for my dogs?

Are we also going to have a public officer determine that my raw feeding protocols are sufficient?

What title is sufficient? It is a CH from the Continental Kennel Club and a Rally Novice title? It is dedication to only 1 sport or beginning titles in a variety of sports? Should a dog have to have a conformation title?



Something that everyone who ever says "There should be a law" needs to think about is Unintended Consequences. It's standard in public policy graduate programs to think and tease out the other side. These are the end results that you didn't think of when the legislation was enacted that could actually weaken the legislation or create other social issues that you will then need to mitigate.

For example, when SF put mandatory S/N in place - they did not anticipate an increase in owner surrenders due to a lack of free or low-cost S/N. That was an unintended consequence of the law.

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Re: A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Postby MetaMuffin » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:50 am

:goodpost:

The less government interferes with my personal life, the better. I don't need a bunch of politicians telling me how to raise my dog. It's already been proven that they don't know anything about dogs at all; hence BSL and MS/N laws.

If people want to breed their mutt to the neighbor's mutt, they are going to, regardless of whether or not there is a law. You cannot legislate responsibility. You cannot force someone to be responsible. You know what you can do? Educate, proved low-cost/free spay and neuter, and have shelters with great publicity.

How would you even enforce such a law? Animal control officers going from door to door, checking to see if your dog still has his balls or not?

When you talk about massive overpopulation and thousands/millions/bajillions of poor puppies killed every day because of those bad mean irresponsible people, you are talking to emotions, not logic. Emotional legislation is about as bad as it gets.

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Re: A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Postby snikles » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:56 am

MetaMuffin wrote:If people want to breed their mutt to the neighbor's mutt, they are going to, regardless of whether or not there is a law. You cannot legislate responsibility. You cannot force someone to be responsible.


In that case you might as well get rid of all laws.

Aren't there already laws and restrictions on breeding in most civilized areas?

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Re: A Law or Restriction on breeding?

Postby MetaMuffin » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:01 am

lol, slippery slope argument.

What kinds of "laws and restrictions" do you mean, and in which "civilized areas?"


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