Feed meat as a supplement?

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.

Feed meat as a supplement?

Postby pocketpit » Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:43 pm

I have a question for those of you who feed raw or barf type diets. I have a Dobe in the house that is anorexic. Health wise he's checked out normal (including bloodwork and trypsin testing) but it's a struggle to get him to eat enough food to keep weight on him. I try to get him to eat at least 6 cups of kibble a day with a can of food mixed in for flavor interest. Without the canned food forget it! He won't eat. On really good days which are few and far between I can get him to eat 2 meals and put more food down him that way. We've tried many different brands of food including the higher end stuff (Canidae ect) over a long period of time. He's now almost a year and a half so it's not like we change his food all the time and have created a picky monster. I though about a home cooked diet, but he won't eat people food either! So I made him some "satin balls" which I've used on another thin dog I had (made a world of difference) and have finally gotten him to the point where he thinks they are good. So the last two days I've given him some raw shoulder chops and such and he ate them with great gusto. I'm wondering if this is an okay way to supplement his kibble? Will it help at all? Does anyone else have input or ideas? My previous Dobe was picky for a long time too, but not this bad and after he turned 2 or so he became a better eater. This dogs hips and spine hang out most of the time. He's extremely active and I have to allow him to be. He's from stong working lines and requires a ton of mental stimulation and active exercise which he gets.
pocketpit
 

Postby HugABull1 » Tue Apr 20, 2004 7:23 pm

hmmm...I'm not sure, but here's my thoughs for what they're worth. I think if you're supplementing with raw meat at his kibble time, you'll be knocking the meat/bone/veg ratio out of balance, and he might not be getting enough calories from the right sources then? If you're using a leaner cut of meat, he may not be getting enough fat? Also, if you feed raw meat and a grain-based kibble together, I've read that the digestion rates are different, so the raw meat stays in the gut longer than it normally would and the dog can get too much bacteria (ie food poisoning) in it's system.

Picky eaters are tough - I'm glad mine are all pigs. Do you make your guy work for his food? Sometimes it's not so much what they eat as how they eat - making them "work" for it, and taking the dish up fifteen minutes after you put it down will make some dogs eat better.

Since he'll eat raw, what about going raw all the way? It's not hard once you're used to it, although it's certainly not quite as easy as pouring kibble in a bowl :tongue: . If that's not an option for you, have you tried talking to your vet about your concerns? I know some dogs are high energy and lean (I've got one of those), but he should still be eating enough to maintain a healthy weight. Maybe you can get a high-cal supplement, or the vet can make specific diet recommendations?

Sorry I can't be more help - good luck :)
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Postby moto1320 » Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:58 pm

I say get him eating,get his metabolism in the right gear and go from there. Once he is used to being full, you will have more control of what he eats, because his desire to do so will be there. I dealt with this with Daisy for a while, now she eats fine. If your aren't aggressive about it, I'd let them eat near each other. Nothing in the world gets mine into something like the other one having it. :))
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Postby Fast-N-Nefari0us » Wed Apr 21, 2004 4:40 am

Hello,
I'm new to this forum and would like to start off by helping out with providing information as to my experiences with health problems especially with nutrition.

First off, try not feed your dog raw meat because raw meat do contain harmful bacterias and protozoas such as Coccidia. Coccidia will cause loss of appetite and can be hard to detect. So, even if your vet says your dog checked out fine, he still may have Coccidia and that may be why he does'nt want to eat. You should ask your vet to look for the protozoa in a stool sample if he/she hasn't already done so.

Have you tried a high calorie supplement? I use a product called Dyne. It's very palatable and will stimulate your dog's appetite. Here's a website that carries the product and info. http://store.yahoo.com/countryside-vet/dyne.html

I hope this helps cause it has for my dogs. Good luck!
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Postby pocketpit » Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:16 am

Thanks for some input. My kids are all on a strict eating schedule (I don't leave food down and everyone has x amount of minutes to finish or that's it) and everyone but him are little piggies! I do place one of my girls in the room with him and it definately helps to stimulate the urge to eat, but when he's done, he's done and he could care less if they eat it. I of course supervise because he's not willing to be agressive over food. It's not worth it to him.
I'm a vet tech at an emergency facility that works with many specialists so I know his overall health is fine. So far the few vets I've asked all want to run tons of super expensive tests. I'd be happy to look into any supplements that might work. I wouldn't mind going totally raw with him (as long as I can afford it) it I knew what the right amount of what he needed. He does not like people food. The only veggie I can come close to getting him to eat is a carrot, he hates yogurt, cottage cheese, bread, rice, pumpkin, mashed potatoes, ect. The list goes on and on. On a positive note, the food refusal exercise in ring should be easy for him :))
I've also tried the idea that he's just picky and will eat when he's good and ready. Doesn't work. He'll happily for for days without anything at all. Of course by the end he's hungry, but that only lasts a day or so and then it's back to no interest.
pocketpit
 

Postby Ariel Payopay » Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:26 am

Fast-N-Nefari0us wrote:
First off, try not feed your dog raw meat because raw meat do contain harmful bacterias and protozoas such as Coccidia.



I've never heard of that. This is what I've read about Coccidia...

Where do Coccidia Come From?

Oocysts (pronounced o'o-sists), like those shown above, are passed in stool. In the outside world, the oocysts begin to mature or “sporulate.” After they have adequately matured, they become infective to any host (dog or cat) that accidentally swallows them.

To be more precise, coccidia come from fecal-contaminated ground. They are swallowed when a pet grooms/licks the dirt off itself. In some cases, sporulated oocysts are swallowed by mice and the host is infected when it eats the mouse. Coccidia infection is especially common in young animals housed in groups (in shelters, rescue areas, kennels, etc.) This is a common parasite and is not necessarily a sign of poor husbandry.


The protozoa I think you're talking about is Neospora Caninum, which is related to Coccidia. Neospora Caninum usually effects younger dogs.

Here's a link...

http://www.naturalholistic.com/handouts/neospora.htm

I've been feeding my dog raw meat off and on no problem. Other folks on this board feed there dog nothing but Bones And Raw Foods with no problem. But after reading that article on Neospora Caninum it's starting to make me think....
:huh?:
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Postby Fast-N-Nefari0us » Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:09 am

Hello Ariel,
Yes, Neospora Caninum is one of just a few that is found in raw meat. as scary as it may seem, strains of these protozoas are developing daily and these protozoas are usually kept in check by a healthy immune system. But, I'm not about to play "russian rulette" with my Precious ones :-) I know raw food is supposedly good for our dogs, but nothing and I mean nothing beats a good high end premium dog kibble. Eukenuba works great for my dogs and may not for yours, but there are many premium dog foods out there to choose from.

Coccidia usually affects puppies or dogs with poor immune system. Coccidia is found in lots of animals including birds and their droppings.
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Postby mnp13 » Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:27 am

I am not pro or anti BARF, but I would not feed raw at this time. Until you are 1000% sure that this is not a medical condition I would not introduce raw food into his diet. A healthy dog can eat good quality raw with no problems, but if there is a problem that you have not found yet his risk of getting sick is much higher.

You said he won't eat rice, but have you tried rice and ground beef? Put the beef in the pot with the rice and cook them both together. Raw eggs are usually another favorite (raw eggs don't have the same 'bad stuff' in them as raw meat). Try white or brown rice.

Will he eat cheese?
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Postby jmann4 » Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:38 am

Do you have a picture of your Dobe?

How much does he weigh?

Have you ever checked his weight by using his ribs, neck and hips as a reference point?

Can you easily see his ribs, spine and hip bones?
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Postby pocketpit » Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:57 pm

Yes you can see his ribs, spine, and hips. He's not emaciated but he definately ranks up there on the too thin scale. I haven't weighed him recently because it makes me more paranoid when I see the numbers pop up. I was going to post some pictures, but you just can't see what I'm talking about unless the photos are big. He actually does look like he's put on a pound or two since I've fed him the meat with his kibble, but I don't want to continue doing this if it's harmful for him. He's tolerated it very well, no diarrhea or anything. I'll weigh him when I go in on Fri and let you now what the scale says.
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Postby concreterose » Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:04 pm

Just wondering....could his immune system be weakened because he doesn't eat regularly?
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Postby jmann4 » Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:16 pm

pocketpit wrote:Yes you can see his ribs, spine, and hips. He's not emaciated but he definately ranks up there on the too thin scale. I haven't weighed him recently because it makes me more paranoid when I see the numbers pop up. I was going to post some pictures, but you just can't see what I'm talking about unless the photos are big. He actually does look like he's put on a pound or two since I've fed him the meat with his kibble, but I don't want to continue doing this if it's harmful for him. He's tolerated it very well, no diarrhea or anything. I'll weigh him when I go in on Fri and let you now what the scale says.


I was just wondering because sometimes dogs that are at a healthy weight are mistaken for being to skinny. Especially if it's a performance bred dog.

What does your vet say about his weight issue?
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Postby pocketpit » Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:30 pm

Jmann, I hear you! My other dogs are all lean working machines and I have heard the your dog is too thin line before! Usually from someone who's dogs are too fat! I just took some pictures and they are not very good but I'll try to get them posted or take some better ones. Being black in color does nothing for trying to highlight a problem area when taking pictures.
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Postby mnp13 » Wed Apr 21, 2004 7:56 pm

pocketpit wrote:He actually does look like he's put on a pound or two since I've fed him the meat with his kibble, but I don't want to continue doing this if it's harmful for him. He's tolerated it very well, no diarrhea or anything. I'll weigh him when I go in on Fri and let you now what the scale says.


If he hasn't had diarrhea or other problems then keep doing what's working. Keep an eye on his water intake (a large increase or decrease can indicate a problem) and make srure you watch him poop to make sure everything is coming out normal.

You do need to be careful as he could have an immune problem due to malnutrition, but on the other hand an extra pound or two tells you you're on the right track.

Be cautious, but if it's working keep on it. I know this contradicts what I said earlier, but if you've already seen improvements I would move forward causiously.

Michelle
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Postby pocketpit » Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:54 pm

If all continues to go okay and it's making a difference, is there any particular type of meat that is better than others or types that I should definately avoid?
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