Need help on weight gain for a pup?

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.

Postby Fast-N-Nefari0us » Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:46 pm

Michelle,
I just found out that many Universities has done this study by purposly feeding dogs and cats Raw egg whites to produce a biotin (vitamin B) deficiency. Do a search on yahoo or google for "Raw Eggs Avidin" and you can then make your own decision, but I love my dogs way too much to risk any health problems associated with Raw Foods. Salmonella is also another bacteria found in uncooked foods and I don't care to subject my dogs to these harmful bacterias. It's like playing Russian Rulette; first 5 eggs may not have it, but the sixth one will and off to the vets office with that easily preventable bill.

Anything that is certified organic does NOT have any hormones or anitbiotics of any kind.

Very True Michelle, but I think you're 1 of 1000 people that shop for Organic Produce.

Hello Pat,
Euk has worked great for "my" dogs. Through trial and error, I've found that my dogs have no allergies associated with dry kibble. I've tried Diamond, Nutro, and even Barf, but these brands along with a few more that I've tried will leave my dogs/puppies with pimples or bumps on the head or on their backs. I finally switched over to Euk and found that my dogs/puppies have never developed the pimples on their heads. All the brands mentioned has given my dogs nice and shiny coats, but Euk is the only one that has never caused my dogs to break out with pimples or bumps on their heads/ears/backs. Why? I don't know, but Euk works great for my dogs.
Fast-N-Nefari0us
 

Postby mnp13 » Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:14 pm

Fast-N-Nefari0us wrote:
Anything that is certified organic does NOT have any hormones or anitbiotics of any kind.

Very True Michelle, but I think you're 1 of 1000 people that shop for Organic Produce.


Perhaps - I actually do organic meats more than anything else. Anyone who has had actual, true free range eggs or meat from animals who have never had soy or other fillers in their food doesn't ususally go back willingly!

My point was that regardless of the kibble source, there is usually a ton of crap in the food to begin with. the overall quality of human food is actually pretty low - I shudder to think of what I feed my dogs. (So I don't think about it!!!)

As for the raw food diet, correctly handled meat and eggs are not dangerous to animals. Until about 50 years ago you fed your dog whatever was on hand. Commercial pet food is a new thing. If it's safe for you to eat cooked it's safe for them to eat raw. Animals are designed to eat stuff that would kill most humans. Feral dogs eat whatever they can scavenge or kill, barn cats have a diet of mostly mice, rats and birds.

As I said, grocery store eggs are irrateated before you get them, that's why they have a shelf life of months. The radiation kills pretty much everything in the egg, so unless you've left it sitting on your counter for a few weeks it's no more dangerous than what most dogs scarf up off the ground.

The salmonella scares and the bacteria and the rest are usually propaganda routines. Yes, of course, there are some dogs who get sick, but you can't make rules based on the 1 in 1000 - that's probably about the same number that gets sick from commercial food anyway.

As for the biotin binding you're speaking of, how much of the diet was eggs for the study? What else were they feeding the animals? As a suppliment to a 'regular' diet three or four eggs a week are just not going to cause much harm.

Michelle

Michelle
mnp13
 

Postby jmann4 » Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:16 pm

Fast-N-Nefari0us wrote:Michelle,
I just found out that many Universities has done this study by purposly feeding dogs and cats Raw egg whites to produce a biotin (vitamin B) deficiency. Do a search on yahoo or google for "Raw Eggs Avidin" and you can then make your own decision, but I love my dogs way too much to risk any health problems associated with Raw Foods. Salmonella is also another bacteria found in uncooked foods and I don't care to subject my dogs to these harmful bacterias. It's like playing Russian Rulette; first 5 eggs may not have it, but the sixth one will and off to the vets office with that easily preventable bill.


I have done much research into raw food diets and while I'm not an expert I would refer someone to a raw diet over a commercial food anyday. For two reasons.

1. Raw foods like beef, poultry, fish, and pork are graded for human consumption. Handling is very specific and monitered closely.

2. Commercial dog food companies are not regulated to the same length and degree. They use decaying, diseased meat, have been known to throw in all sorts of goodies, leather shoes being just one example.

What's funny about the commercial food vs. raw food argument is how people bring up bacteria and all the health risks. Dogs have stomachs designed by nature to handle such bacteria.

What they do not have is a stomach that can break down the chemicals used in cheap commerical dog food.

The canine digestive system is THOUSANDS of years old. Dog food companies have been around for a little over 50 years. Which is not enough time to change their genetic make up.

Ultimately it comes down to one thing. What you think is good for YOUR dog.

And finally, if you feed a dog 10 eggs a day, yeah, that might cause a problem. Which reminds of a study done with the sacrin (SP?) where they said it can cause cancer and was shown to do so in rats. What they didn't tell you was each rat was given 2 lbs of the stuff per day.
jmann4
 

Postby Fast-N-Nefari0us » Wed Apr 21, 2004 3:20 pm

Raw foods like beef, poultry, fish, and pork are graded for human consumption. Handling is very specific and monitered closely[/qoute]
What's funny about the commercial food vs. raw food argument is how people bring up bacteria and all the health risks. Dogs have stomachs designed by nature to handle such bacteria.


Hello jmann4,
Michelle obviously knows what goes on behind the scene and that's why she chose to go the Organic way.

Back then, raw food was never injected with Pennicilin and other fillers/antibiotics. That's why animals lived a healthy balanced life style. But now, we're feeding our animals processed raw meats/veggies that have pennicilin in them which in turn kills the good bacteria called Acidophilus that keeps the the bad bacterias in check. Once the good bacteria gets down to a low level, then the bad bacterias take over and then a whole load of health problems appear. I honestly feel that this is why dogs and humans are developing cancers of unkonwn strains and health issues unknown to doctors. I'm no expert, but I have done my homework and will stick to what I believe. What works for me and my dogs may not for the next person, but thi is just my experiences and what I've learned from the research that I've done in regards to this matter. check out Lactobacillus Acidophilus ;-)
Fast-N-Nefari0us
 

Postby mnp13 » Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:18 pm

Fast-N-Nefari0us wrote:I'm no expert, but I have done my homework and will stick to what I believe. What works for me and my dogs may not for the next person, but thi is just my experiences and what I've learned from the research that I've done in regards to this matter. check out Lactobacillus Acidophilus ;-)


To be frank, if you are feeding Eukanuba and calling it 'good food' then you have not done all of your homework. If your dogs are doing well on the food then that is fine, but it is not high grade food in any way shape or form. I know dogs that do well on Dog Chow, but that doesn't make it 'good' food.

I just read through the Eukanuba website and they list 'chicken by product meal' as an ingredient. This is not the same as 'chicken meal'. Regardless of how they claim that they 'refine' it, chicken by product meal is the leftover crap that no one can use for anything else.

I understand that you have read some studies, but the very simple plain fact is that modern human grade meats will not hurt dogs - whether they are raw or cooked. The stuff the FDA allows in meats today is appaling to me, but it will not hurt a healthy dog - just as it doesn't do immediate harm to humans.

The main point you are missing is that the initial processing of the meat is done in the stomach. Dogs have an extremely acidic stomach, it is high enough pH to dissolve bone particles. There are few bacteria that could get through that in the first place.

You bring up 'weird cancers', yet you give your dog processed food made from scraps that can't be used any other way. food labeling is an art form all by itself. Undefined 'Protein meal' is actually rendered protein. Do you have any idea what goes into protein rendering vats? You don't want to know.

Raw/ partially cooked food is by far the most healthy diet for dogs. It is what they are made to eat. They lived on raw food and people food for the last 6000 years or so, only in the past 50 years did humans decide that little pellets of processed food was better than the food they were designed to eat.

Do I personally feed kibble, despite knowing what is in it? Yes. It is easier, my dog likes it and it is much less messy. I don't have time to prepare normal meals for myself right now! I do the best I can in that respect, but I don't kid myself that there are better diets out there.

Michelle
mnp13
 

Postby barbponys » Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:39 pm

I have fed raw food to my dogs for a loooong time now. My pit has eaten it all her life, she's almost 8 and we have had her since she was 10 weeks. She eats a half and half diet just because of economics, we are feeding 17 animals, straight raw for the dogs isn't an option. The dry she gets is the best on the market at this time, it works for her. It doesn't for all dogs but for the majority it's an outstanding diet. I DO NOT prefer to feed kibble. If we didn't have horses, goats, chickens(they eat nothing but organic) and a myriad of animals in the house she would never eat another kibble.

Fast, all the dry foods that you mentioned were as bad if not worse than Euk. There have been some serious improvements in the manufacture of dry food in the last 4 years. Some can be hard to find but well worth the hunt. Any time a food lists by-product, middling, hulls, brans, flours, glutens and chemicals in its food you shouldn't walk away......you should run, very fast. BHA, BHT and Ethoxequin are ALL horrible preservatives. Talk about weird cancers, with the amounts of that crap in foods it's a miracle any of those poor animals reach the age of 5 with out something horrid happening to them. Open a bag.......it's as good at day 300 as it is at day 1.........not my idea of a good thing. JMO.

Pat
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Postby Fast-N-Nefari0us » Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:38 am

Hello,
I trust Eukanuba and the team of scientists behind the product. Through research, they've developed a product that is Superior to ANY HOME MADE MEAL. NO HOME MADE MEAL will ever have all the nutrients a dog needs to maintain a healthy and balanced diet, but a very high end kibble like Eukanuba will. I for one believe Eukenuba is an honest company that will not use any ingredient that will harm our pets. Through word of mouth, everyone has gotten the notion that "By-Products" are bad, when in fact an animal in the wild will eat from the inside out. Canines will tear open the stomach of the catch and eat everything within and work their way out. What do yall think 'By-Products" are? I will certainly not purchase low end feed, and definitely will not down grade Eukanuba just because a few people say their product is expensive and don't understand the meaning of "By-Products"

Mad Cow Desease and the fact that farmers are feeding their cows products made from cow blood is enough for me to stay clear of Raw Food diets. God knows what kind of chemicals, antibiotics, bacteria, and viruses you may subject your pet to when wipping up the next batch Rw Food. At least high end kibble will have product control since this is their speciality and work all day long to provide a Superior product for our pets. I'll have peice of mind when feeding my pets a complete diet made by Eukanuba. Cheers and thanks for all your opinions. I hope all this has helped HondaX in deciding how to keep his/her puppy healthy. Good luck HondaX!
Fast-N-Nefari0us
 

Postby jmann4 » Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:54 am

Fast-N-Nefari0us wrote:Through word of mouth, everyone has gotten the notion that "By-Products" are bad, when in fact an animal in the wild will eat from the inside out. Canines will tear open the stomach of the catch and eat everything within and work their way out. What do yall think 'By-Products" are? I will certainly not purchase low end feed, and definitely will not down grade Eukanuba just because a few people say their product is expensive and don't understand the meaning of "By-Products"


Yup. They do it FRESH stomach contents, FRESH organs, and FRESH muscle from the inside out. Not highly processed, chemically enhanced man-made lab vitamins.

Animal by-products are any part of the animal that is not used for human consumption. Which includes a very long list of interesting things.

If I'm wrong, could you explain it to me?

I have nothing against feeding kibble by the way. I feed Innova to one of my dogs and 98% raw to my other dog. Honey is on kibble because she just doesn't like raw food. If I cook it she'll eat it so I toss in a few cooked goodies here and there.
Last edited by jmann4 on Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jmann4
 

Postby mnp13 » Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:23 pm

jmann4 wrote:Animal by-products are any part of the animal that is not used for human consumption. Which includes a very long list of interesting things.


Such as:
ears, tails, lungs, large intestine, bladder, hooves, damaged areas of the carcass, skin, hair, eyes, brains, meat from downed animals (not fit for human consumption), I'm sure there are plenty more.

The FDA also allows 'rendered protein' in kibble. That is made from:
whole animal carcasses, (including killed shelter animals) road kill, some of this and some of that. The 'protein sources' are run through grinders and then rendered down to separate off the fat and protein.

Mmmmmmmmm, I'm hungry now.
mnp13
 

Postby mnp13 » Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:18 pm

"Chicken by-product meal" "Meat and bone meal" and other similarly worded ingredients are commonly found on pet food lables. These meals are created at rendering plants.

Some rendering information:

http://lnweb18.worldbank.org/essd/essd.nsf/GlobalView/PPAH/$File/65_meat.pdf
This is about water usage in rendering plants, however if you read it it tells you what is actually being rendered in those plants

http://www.meatnews.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=Article&artNum=2882
From this article "At issue is an organ slurry - a mixture of ground cattle offal, including liver and lungs that is commonly used in pet food."

http://www.meatnews.com/mp/northamerican/dsp_article_mp.cfm?artNum=613&issueMonth=12&issueYear=2003
This one is kind of gross "Mims Meat has strict protocols for waste management and disposal. According to Renfro, processing waste is placed in barrels marked “inedible,” and a green denaturing agent is poured on top so it cannot be used for anything else. The barrels are covered to minimize odors and prevent unwanted access; they are also stored in a cooler, where the controlled temperature serves as a deterrent to insects. A rendering company picks up the carefully contained waste once a week."

from the EPA website http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch09/final/c9s05-3.pdf
"Independent plants obtain animal by-product materials, including grease, blood, feathers, offal, and entire animal carcasses, from the following sources: butcher shops, supermarkets, restaurants, fast-food chains, poultry processors, slaughterhouses, farms, ranches, feedlots, and animal shelters."

What is 'chicken by-product meal' made of?? The answer from the same document:
Poultry Feathers And Hog Hair Processing —
The raw material is introduced into a batch cooker, and is processed for 30 to 45 minutes at temperatures ranging from 138° to 149°C (280° to 300°F) and pressures ranging from (40 to 50 psig). This process converts keratin, the principal component of feathers and hog hair, into amino acids. The moist meal product, containing the amino acids, is passed either through a hot air, ring-type dryer or over steam-heated tubes to remove the moisture from the meal. If the hot air dryer is used, the dried product is separated from the exhaust by cyclone collectors. In the steam-heated tube system, fresh air is passed countercurrent to the flow of the meal to remove the moisture. The dried meal is transferred to storage. The exhaust gases are passed through controls prior to discharge to the atmosphere.

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/newslett.nsf/all/bb3937?OpenDocument
"Materials used in rendering include slaughterhouse offal and inedible materials, deadstock, and/or restaurant grease and fat. Currently, modifications in rendering are under way so that these materials will be separated by species, or be absent of specified risk materials (SRMs). Those materials defined as SRMs include the skull, brain and the nerves attached to them, the spinal cord and nerves attached to it, eyes and tonsils in cattle aged 30 months and older."

http://www.all-creatures.org/mfz/madcow-rend.html
And last but not least, here is a list of links about rendering. Some of the referenced articles are a bit 'green' for my taste, but some are very interesteing, especially the one called "How Dead Pets, Bad Brains, and Free Speech Landed Me in Amarillo" which is partially about the U.S. District Court case of Texas Beef Group vs. Oprah Winfrey.

Do I still feed kibble? Yup. Will I continue to feed it because I currently do not make the time to make my pets a home cooked diet? Yes. However, I know, and do not deny, exactly what is in the food I am feeding my dog.

Michelle
mnp13
 

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