To crop or not to crop??

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Misskiwi67
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To crop or not to crop??

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:48 pm

No, I'm not asking if I should crop my dogs ears.

I'm actually asking if you think this is a service veterinarians should be willing to provide? I've done quite a few tails and dewclaws lately, and my clinic uses the best local anesthesia and laser surgery equiptment possible for these procedures, and I feel like even though I don't enjoy it, we do it well and its a service to the pups to make sure the job is done right.

I haven't been asked to crop ears yet, but there are a LOT of pit bulls in my area, and I'm sure its a matter of time. Is this something I should learn to do well, or something I should pass on? I have no moral apprehension other than the need to have the procedure performed properly with good anesthesia and postoperative pain management... so I'm sortof torn.

msvette2u

Postby msvette2u » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:53 pm

Our vets do not perform this procedure and I'm happy they don't.

However, I get what you're saying.

I'd have a moral dilemma too, because it's an unnecessary anesthesia risk.

I'm not sure what I'd do.

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Postby BrokenAquarian » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:13 am

I don't understand what you're torn about.

If you have no moral apprehension and there are a lot of dogs around that commonly get cropped, it would be a service that might be understandably provided.

If you are going to provide it, then YES, you should learn to be good at it lol

You are in charge of prescribing anesthesia and pain meds, not the owner - so that would be your responsibility anyway.

Do you feel like cutting dog ears? If no - then don't offer it as a service.
If you don't mind it, then offer it. :))

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Misskiwi67
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Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:27 am

BrokenAquarian wrote:I don't understand what you're torn about.



Many people who don't like declawing cats wish veterinarians would not offer the service so fewer people would declaw. They believe its cruel and veterinarians are doing a disservice to society by declawing. I know that scratching is one of many behavior problems that causes relinquishment to shelters, so I'm willing to declaw cats.

A dogs crop might change its chances of getting adopted, but won't change its chances of getting to the shelter. There is no reason TO learn to crop except to offer a quality service. I would have to go out of my way to learn, and I'm just curious if its a service thats needed or if its a service that should just disappear.

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Postby Amie » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:08 am

I would prefer that a vet offer the declaw service, but require a serious "consultation" session in which the ramifications are thoroughly discussed. The possible health, litterbox, behavior issues, as well as alternatives (soft paws, training, or a combination) before the surgery is performed.



As for the cropping, since you dont already know how, I would say familiarize yourself with others who do that you can recommend, and offer a similar type consultation before hand, discussing the upkeep/recovery of the surgery.

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Postby dawnapbt » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:40 am

I think you should offer the service, especially since you're doing laser crops. That's a whole lot better than the traditional crop, so in once sense, you're doing the dogs that will be cropped a favor.

If you have qualms, you can offer the service only for show people and not for pet dogs. I personally do not like cropping ears. I do it for the show ring, but for dogs I'm not showing (like Tauri) the ears stay natural (and as a bonus, she has nice ears)!

But...if you don't offer it, as long as it is legal, they'll just go somewhere else, to a place that may do a traditional crop. So, I say go for it. If I were a dog, and I had to have my ears cropped, I'd MUCH prefer the laser method. So much easier and faster healing.

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Postby tigger » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:26 am

According to the Pit/As breed standard the ears do not have to be cropped and tails are never docked. Tail docking was never part of the breed.

Other breeds do get the ears & tails done as it is a part of their history and breed specs. Breeders typically take care of this when the pup is young, before the pain sensors are in place. I don't see any reason not to do this.

Personally, I would rather not crop Pit ears. However, if it comes down to you doing it or someone with a pair of scissors in their basement using topical anesthesia; I would say do it. At least you can have the comfort of knowing that it was done in a safe environment and the dog won't be traumatized.

Maybe do a printout of the breed standards that you can hand out to owners thinking about the procedure. Explain to them that, in the past, cropping was only done on fighting dogs. If it's an asthetic issue, like the ear set being off, you probably won't sway them. Like you mentioned, be sure that the owner is well informed on the procedure and be sure that they are informed of the standards. The more info they have the more educated of a decision they can make.

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Postby Jazzy » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:39 am

I understand why you are torn.

Personally I am not a fan of surgical procedures done on animals for the sake of aesthetics. That said, the practice is not going to disappear, so it seems preferable that the service be provided by someone who can do it as safely and with as little trauma to the animal as possible; and by someone who can provide as Aime said, education with regard to risks/benefits of the procedure.

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jlphilli
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Postby jlphilli » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:55 am

I would say offer the service, but as mentioned before give a consultation session about it and maybe offer some literature they can look at (if you have any or know where to get some).

JMO though :)

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Postby El_EmDubya » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:26 pm

Ms K,

I'd also look at this from a business perspective.

Who do you want YOUR brand to be? (Are you Ford, Kia, Subaru, VW, or Volvo? Are you Apple or Microsoft? Are you Pantene or Bumble and Bumble?)

Does the fact that you offer this service discourage/alienate clients that you want? Through offering this service, are you more likely to be respected in the Vet community? (You'll need those referrals.)

Do you like the clients (sweeping generalization here) who own dogs with cropped ears? Is there a difference in the 'expensive crop' crowd? (Meaning, if you charge $500 for a laser crop, will you attract new clients that you want for the long haul?)

Just some things to think about. :)

I have no opinion either way. I think the argument for and against is pretty balanced. It is just up to you w/r/t your desires for your professional reputation.

Marie

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Misskiwi67
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Postby Misskiwi67 » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:10 am

tigger wrote:Other breeds do get the ears & tails done as it is a part of their history and breed specs. Breeders typically take care of this when the pup is young, before the pain sensors are in place. I don't see any reason not to do this.


Even with pain meds, the puppies scream. They are not under anesthesia, they have plenty pain receptors and its not a fun procedure. I do it because my clients request it and I want to do it well. My mentor takes extra steps to make sure the pups are as comfortable as we can safely make them, and we do as much as we can to make sure the toes and tails look great when they heal too... even if I hate it, there's something to be proud of there...

As for the rest, nobody has asked about ear crops yet. I don't know what types of clients request it, or if there is another vet in the area who does this well and our clinic refers to them. I just saw a thread about ear cropping and decided to pose the question...

I appreciate everyones thoughts... not sure if it helps, but its definitely helpful that there isn't as much drama as I thought there might be.

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Postby 6pak » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:34 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:
Even with pain meds, the puppies scream. They are not under anesthesia, they have plenty pain receptors and its not a fun procedure. .


What??? How is the dog not anesthesia? How do they not bite? I probably do not want to know. I just always assumed they were out for the procedure.
:eek:

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Postby ella46 » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:39 am

6pak wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:
Even with pain meds, the puppies scream. They are not under anesthesia, they have plenty pain receptors and its not a fun procedure. .


What??? How is the dog not anesthesia? How do they not bite? I probably do not want to know. I just always assumed they were out for the procedure.
:eek:



Mostly because it happens to puppys who are too young to have teeth

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Postby bahamutt99 » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:55 am

IMO, there should be at least some vets willing to perform those cosmetic procedures. I'm not saying that every vet should feel obligated to, as it wouldn't kill folks to have to make a few phone calls to find a vet that does that stuff. But it should still be available, as long as it continues to be legal. People have their reasons for wanting to crop/dock/remove dewclaws, and those people should be able to go to a licensed vet and have it done.

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Postby jlphilli » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:35 am

6pak wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:
Even with pain meds, the puppies scream. They are not under anesthesia, they have plenty pain receptors and its not a fun procedure. .


What??? How is the dog not anesthesia? How do they not bite? I probably do not want to know. I just always assumed they were out for the procedure.
:eek:


I would guess that injectable or inhalant anesthesia is too high of a risk for such a young age. Plus, if they go under inhalant anesthesia I'm pretty sure they need an IV catheter, etc which also raises cost. With the injectable anesthesia it would be very difficult to get such a small dose into the pup, and then of course the risks just due to age. (I don't know, I'm just speculating)


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