Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.
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Michael
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Re: Interesting statement about "fixing your dogs"

Postby Michael » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:00 pm

BrokenAquarian wrote:
1lila1 wrote:
Michael wrote:
I am in my 40's and have raised APBT's most of my life.
I do not S/N.
I have had ZERO accidents.
I have dogs worthy of breeding in my humble opinion, and may at some point wish to do so. I have that right.


I'm curious as to why you wouldn't spay or neuter dogs that have reached maturity yet you are not planning on breeding them?


I'm not speaking for Michael, but this is what I got from his post.

He hasn't bred his dogs yet, that doesn't mean he will never breed them.

Just because you have a dog that's worthy of breeding, doesn't mean that you have to breed them the first chance you get. You wait for the right dog to come along, the right time in YOUR schedule and plenty of other factors before breeding your animals.

He's keeping his options open.


Right on the money!

I just wonder about the frustration a male would feel who is not allowed to be bred. If they can smell a female in heat a mile away yet are unable to breed, and still posess the desire to, IMO, that would cause a lot of unnecessary stress and frustration for a male dog.


I hear ya, it is frustrating for my male. Hell I was 18 once I know how he feels :))
on a serious note, yes that short period of time isn't fun. It is managable.
I have built seperate kennels so keeping them seperated is pretty easy.

Did you ever experience Pyometra with any of your intact females?


No, haven't had that problem. I have had several females. (Knock on wood)

We have property out in the sticks that we plan to build on.
We would love to open and operate kennel, or some other facility,
Maybe a boarding kennel, or some such.

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The Teflon Don
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Postby The Teflon Don » Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:10 am

msvette2u wrote:Along with RIGHTS come RESPONSIBILITIES.
I don't think most of America is responsible enough to keep intact pets.
I KNOW some of the people on this forum aren't responsible enough. It's been proven.
Sure, it might be your "right", but do you really think it's "right" and good to add to the pet overpopulation problem??

Unless you are SHOWING your dog, health testing it extensively (more than a yearly vet visit) and it's won awards and conformation competitions, how do you even KNOW you have a breed worthy dog?
You don't. Period.


This is probably the most important post in the thread...and unfortunately personal responsibility is something that is not nearly as common as it used to be.

Hopefully people understand that and will accept the fact that owning altered pets it much "easier"

That said, I am going to come out of the s/n closet and admit that John Gotti is intact.

Long story short- we got John when we were 18...at that time I was not concerned with neutering. We had even tossed around the idea of breeding him (young and dumb).

Since then, I have come to understand many of the benefits of s/n, and we will probably alter all of our future dogs.

On the other hand, I have had the luxury of witnessing an intact male grow into the perfect dog...with zero behavioral issues.

If we were having any behavioral issues, Gotti would be in for "the big snip" in a heartbeat. Until then, he will be left intact because an intact John is the boy I know, love, and trust to the utmost.

Hopefully nobody thinks differently of me after this...if so...Oh well! :thumbsup:

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Postby Roxers » Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:27 am

msvette2u wrote:Along with RIGHTS come RESPONSIBILITIES.
I don't think most of America is responsible enough to keep intact pets.
I KNOW some of the people on this forum aren't responsible enough. It's been proven.
Sure, it might be your "right", but do you really think it's "right" and good to add to the pet overpopulation problem??

Unless you are SHOWING your dog, health testing it extensively (more than a yearly vet visit) and it's won awards and conformation competitions, how do you even KNOW you have a breed worthy dog?
You don't. Period.


:goodpost:

I don't think this argument really has anything to do with "rights." I have the "right" to make my dog live outside on a chain 24/7... I have the "right" to never vaccinate my dog for anything other than rabies... I have the "right" to do a lot of things to my dog... that doesn't mean that they are not harmful or irresponsible things to do. Saying that you have "the right" to breed your dogs if you want to is a ridiculous argument.

Red Chrome

Postby Red Chrome » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:11 pm

msvette2u wrote:I'm not one who's ever thought it will change but it can help stem some of the dog-dog aggression.
You can't tell me that two intact males will not fight if there's a female in season nearby

Also breed has a huge role in DA as does individual traits.


OK, as the owner of an intact male dog. I have to comment on this. My dog has been around several intact male dogs while females were in heat and he hasn't fought with them, the reason, he was contained on a leash and was listening.

Just because your male is intact does NOT mean that they will automatically fight with every intact male they see when they're around a bitch in heat. Just had to say. My male is VERY DA as well.

Also there are articles about Early Speutering being linked to HD! All my future dogs will be intact until they're 18 months old to 2 years old. IMHO and expierience they have a much better look and growth rate and less risk of health problems that are linked to early speutering.

Courtney

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chako
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Postby chako » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:26 pm

Red Chrome wrote:Also there are articles about Early Speutering being linked to HD! All my future dogs will be intact until they're 18 months old to 2 years old. IMHO and expierience they have a much better look and growth rate and less risk of health problems that are linked to early speutering.

Courtney


Do you have those articles? I'd like to see them.

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SonnysMomma
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Postby SonnysMomma » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:30 pm

The Teflon Don wrote:
jlphilli wrote:lol

It was likely that he was neutered before puberty since he is tall and has a small....well, ya know. ;)


That's kinda what I figured... lol

I was trying to avoid directly asking the question regarding size lol

But yeah....I noticed he looked a bit..."immature" :oops:

On that note: He has a very large and very muscular head (see avatar)


Its not the size of the peepee, its the size of the head that matters...WAIT... roflmao ...thats not what I meant!!!

TD, i love your boy, he is so squishy even with his immaturity! lol

Red Chrome

Postby Red Chrome » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:41 pm

chako wrote:
Red Chrome wrote:Also there are articles about Early Speutering being linked to HD! All my future dogs will be intact until they're 18 months old to 2 years old. IMHO and expierience they have a much better look and growth rate and less risk of health problems that are linked to early speutering.

Courtney


Do you have those articles? I'd like to see them.


Here you go...
It's under the orthopedic diorders in this one but there is a lot of other good stuff in the article as well.

http://chekia.com/earlyspayneuter.html

This one is a cpmpilation citing the benefits and the pitfalls of early speutering.

http://www.thensome.com/neutering.htm

Courtney

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Postby Maryellen » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:12 pm

Teflon as long as you are responsible with John Gotti being intact no one can fault you for that.

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Postby Kingsgurl » Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:25 pm

Funny. My female who was spayed at 4 months has great hips. Martin, who was altered after fully maturing, is mildly dysplastic AND had to have both knees repaired. Guess there are other factors to consider, like genetics.
It's been my personal experience that very few people are responsible enough to own intact dogs without incident. It's also been my experience that a lot of people who choose not to alter do so for anthropomorphic reasons. Not talking about anyone here.

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Postby The Teflon Don » Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:29 pm

Kingsgurl wrote:It's also been my experience that a lot of people who choose not to alter do so for anthropomorphic reasons. Not talking about anyone here.


I agree 100%...

It was certainly not the only reason we chose not alter Gotti, but being an 18 year old "tough guy" at the time it certainly played a role in our decision to leave him intact.

Now- I am completely past that...the only reason he is still intact is, IMO, there is no reason to neuter him.

BUT- he has made me rethink my stance on the whole s/n debate...I honestly don't know where I stand on the issue right now...

medagrl

Postby medagrl » Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:13 pm

Hmm, this is all very interesting...I had my bitch spayed just last week, she is anywhere between 1-3 years old, and she is the calmest thing...the last to bark, overreact, be frightened. Where as Bella was fixed at 8 weeks and is a complete PANIC ATTACK. But, I am sure Bella being so young plays a huge part in this.

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Postby bahamutt99 » Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:46 pm

Here are the two articles that I like with regard to early spay/neuter.

http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/whitepapers/ ... rticle.pdf
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

You know, I sincerely believe we get brainwashed that all dogs should be spayed/neutered, and that we will not be happy with our dogs otherwise. We are led to believe that there is a substantial difference, and that an intact dog will be unamanageable in anything but a professional dog trainer's home. People try to find any way they can to link a dog's reproductive status with bites, attacks, cancer, and all other kinds of nasty things. The desire to keep a dog intact becomes associated with greed, masculinity issues, stupidity. In short, the dog's reproductive organs are demonized, and people that choose to keep intact dogs are reduced to slobbering buffoons.

I will not lie and say that I am 100% happy with my decision to spay Loki. Honestly, I blame/credit the decision partly on the extensive pressure that people put on each other to alter their dogs. When I had her and she was not yet spayed, I was very antsy, and was bogged down by all the horror stories and fear of being labeled a bad owner and all that crap. I was looking for any minute reason to spay her, and my fear won out over what should've been my UKC Superdog. I cannot accuse people of making me do something I didn't want to do since I am a thinking person myself. But it would be fallacy to say that the relentless push to neuter everything didn't play a role. Point blank, I regret it now.

Far be it for me to suggest that we shouldn't encourage people to spay/neuter their pets. But you know what? Maybe sometimes we should just back off. Maybe the presence of reproductive organs doesn't mean that a dog is going to become like the feral pig of the canine world versus Babe. Maybe the owner has more to do with the quality of life than the gonads. Maybe they wont even breed the dog. Just maybe.

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Postby Roxers » Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:55 pm

bahamutt99 wrote:Maybe they wont even breed the dog. Just maybe.


But that's a pretty big "maybe" and the major reason that there are tons of unwanted dogs killed every day in shelters. Accidents happen.

msvette2u

Postby msvette2u » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:11 pm

Kingsgurl wrote:Funny. My female who was spayed at 4 months has great hips. Martin, who was altered after fully maturing, is mildly dysplastic AND had to have both knees repaired. Guess there are other factors to consider, like genetics.
It's been my personal experience that very few people are responsible enough to own intact dogs without incident. It's also been my experience that a lot of people who choose not to alter do so for anthropomorphic reasons. Not talking about anyone here.


I believe this is wholly true and while some may "demonize" early speuter or intact dogs, others are bending over backwards to decry spay/neuter at all, and there's got to be a middle ground.
Anyone who knows anything knows there's too many unwanted pets in this country.
I agree that there is some place for responsible breeders and responsible owners but overall, people can't even keep their pets on their property, or don't care to, and there's entirely too many animals being altered.
If you lose a dogs' "looks" as an intact adult, yet prevent unwanted litters, what's wrong with that?
If it's a PET dog, not a show prospect so how it "might" have looked isn't really an issue in most cases.
We've seen billions of cases where people were too irresponsible to keep intact pets, and too few cases where everything turned out okay and the pets went to their grave intact, healthy, and never having fathered or borne a litter.
However, we just neutered a Border Collie, Hank, who was an older male, with testicular cancer.
He may very well die an early death due to an entirely preventable disease.

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Postby KadillacGrrl » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:47 pm

[quote="bahamutt99" ]I will not lie and say that I am 100% happy with my decision to spay Loki. Honestly, I blame/credit the decision partly on the extensive pressure that people put on each other to alter their dogs. When I had her and she was not yet spayed, I was very antsy, and was bogged down by all the horror stories and fear of being labeled a bad owner and all that crap. I was looking for any minute reason to spay her, and my fear won out over what should've been my UKC Superdog. I cannot accuse people of making me do something I didn't want to do since I am a thinking person myself. But it would be fallacy to say that the relentless push to neuter everything didn't play a role. Point blank, I regret it now.

Far be it for me to suggest that we shouldn't encourage people to spay/neuter their pets. But you know what? Maybe sometimes we should just back off. Maybe the presence of reproductive organs doesn't mean that a dog is going to become like the feral pig of the canine world versus Babe. Maybe the owner has more to do with the quality of life than the gonads. Maybe they wont even breed the dog. Just maybe.[/quote]

You're such a smart girl. I'm sorry that you (sorta) gave in to the pressures... Fact is, you ARE a responsible owner and you can handle intact animals. We need people like you to BE the ones with intact dogs that may or may not be bred.

I still have one intact bitch... I go back and forth on whether or not to spay for a few reasons.

Still, I do TACTFULLY encourage spay or neuter. I try to give valid and unemotional reasons why. If people are very resistant, I let up. It's not my job to hassle and annoy people. It's my job to give information, discuss... and hope they make a good decision one way or the other. I'm not trying to freak people out with buckets of dead puppies or other random horror stories, but I do tell folks some of the real issues that can come up.

Does owning an intact dog and encouraging spay/neuter make me a hypocrite? I don't think so... but this is also part of the reason I don't shove it down people's throats. I will still spay/neuter my pets as I see fit. I believe it's a Good Thing, and will continue to share that with folks.


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