Judge's X-rays....Opinions......

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Red Chrome

Judge's X-rays....Opinions......

Postby Red Chrome » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:51 pm

OK, I have had 2 sets of X-rays done on Judge. The first was with no anesthesia at 7 months old. The second was done at 11 months old BUT the x-rays are a little crappy, crappy vet did them actually a kennel attendant and the vet tech did them :umm: . He was under for the second set. I'm going to have to have another set done to send in for Pre-Lims as I don't think that the second set is good enough for OFA.

I worked for the second vet and quit due to the happenings there. Anyway, the first vet that x-rayed him without anesthesia said that they looked good and normal. The second vet said that they were crap and that I should send the dog back because they wouldn't pass OFA. Judge walks fine and has never had problems. I just want some unbiased opinions from knowledgable people! :)

First set at 7 months old....NO anesthesia....
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Second set at 10 months old...UNDER Anesthesia..I know that the x-rays are bad...you should see them in person :(

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Misskiwi67
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Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:28 pm

Well, there's 50% coverage, he might pass... but those aren't the greatest hips for sure. There is a lot of laxity there, the space between the femoral head and the acetabulum is considerable. Your pup is lucky to have such well-formed acetabulums (sockets). The space will be increased due to anesthesia, but it shouldn't make that much difference.

I can't believe people still use imaging equiptment like that... Send him to me and I'll pay for you to get some real rads just so I don't have to look at those...

Red Chrome

Postby Red Chrome » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:37 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:Well, there's 50% coverage, he might pass... but those aren't the greatest hips for sure. There is a lot of laxity there, the space between the femoral head and the acetabulum is considerable. Your pup is lucky to have such well-formed acetabulums (sockets). The space will be increased due to anesthesia, but it shouldn't make that much difference.

I can't believe people still use imaging equiptment like that... Send him to me and I'll pay for you to get some real rads just so I don't have to look at those...


lol Yeah those rads SUCK and honestly I think they're what makes his hips look as bad as they do, the positioning and the equipment etc. A vet TECH did the second ones and they are so bad IMO!

I have been told be GSD people that have looked at the rads in person that he will pass no problem with a "Good" rating.

I was also told that they will tighten as he gets older. To me the first set of rads looks WAY better than the second set. Also, he appears tighter in the joints on the first set because he was awake......which OFA prefers now, I believe.

Thank you for your view. I'm taking him to have the "real" ones done at a VERY good clinic so I'll post those in a few months when we get them.

Courtney

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Sarah
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Postby Sarah » Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:30 pm

Wow, those are crap films. While I don't have MissKiwi's qualifications, I have to agree with her, those aren't the best hips. Maybe a Fair.

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Postby BrokenAquarian » Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:51 pm

If GSD people are saying that the dog will pass with no problem - that is a problem.

If the dog is only "Fair", and passes with flying colors - doesn't that mean that GSD people are letting standards slip so they don't have to weed out so many HD stricken dogs - just because they "aren't that bad"? :(

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Postby Sarah » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:14 pm

BrokenAquarian wrote:If GSD people are saying that the dog will pass with no problem - that is a problem.

If the dog is only "Fair", and passes with flying colors - doesn't that mean that GSD people are letting standards slip so they don't have to weed out so many HD stricken dogs - just because they "aren't that bad"? :(


Well, not really, because if they actually are having the X-rays read by the OFA (which plenty of GSD people are), then they don't have influence over what rating they get, the OFA radiologists will give their honest opinion.

And Fair is passing, so if the dog gets that rating, he is not dysplastic. But there are certainly better GSD hips out there.

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Postby Kahlie » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:20 pm

Stupid questions but partially related...

a) Dog with 'fair' hips should or shouldn't be bred (aside from meeting the other criteria we have here) and,

b) if in a litter, there are very dysplastic pups, but some ok (at least no symptoms), is it responsible to breed that pup later on?


And although that Xray is far better than my old GSD (RIP), who had bad hips his whole life, and severe near the end, I do see that it appears 'loose' - can that appearance be caused by bad xrays? Or is it just the quality that's evidently bad (xray quality that is).

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Postby jlphilli » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:56 pm

Sarah wrote:Wow, those are crap films. While I don't have MissKiwi's qualifications, I have to agree with her, those aren't the best hips. Maybe a Fair.


x3

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Postby Sarah » Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:05 am

Callie wrote:Stupid questions but partially related...

a) Dog with 'fair' hips should or shouldn't be bred (aside from meeting the other criteria we have here) and,

b) if in a litter, there are very dysplastic pups, but some ok (at least no symptoms), is it responsible to breed that pup later on?
.


a) It depends.

b) No, probably not.

HD is complicated, and screening for it requires a certain amount of discretion. Both my bitches were rated "Fair", and I had no problem breeding Tully, and will breed Tess with complete comfort. Part of the reason for their rating could have to do with their unique SBT structure, which is supposed to be taken into account, but doesn't always appear to be.

Tully's OFA shot:

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Aside from being a much, much better quality X-ray than the OP's dog, if you look, you will notice that the necks of Tully's femurs are considerably shorter than those of the GSD. (noticeable despite the poor quality of the GSDs rads) This is typical for an SBT, and does not cause problems for them, but the vet who did the films for me, while agreeing with me that Tully's hips look sound, pointed those out as something that might lower her rating.

You can see, though, that the femoral heads are tightly seated in the sockets, and have plenty of coverage. This dog is not remotely dysplastic.

Even more important, all her family members who have been X-rayed have also passed, with a "Fair" rating. In terms of avoiding HD, it is safer to use a dog for breeding with a "Fair" rating, whose family has all also been rated "Fair", than to use a dog with an "Excellent" rating who comes from a family which has produced dysplasia. Or even than to use a dog with an "Excellent" rating, but no other family members rated (though there are certainly times when that is the right thing to do). The more family members rated, the more clear the picture of what sort of genes the dog might be carrying.

There are also environmental factors at work in HD, so there is much to take into account when considering breeding.

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Postby GoingPostal » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:20 am

Ok now I'm curious, I had Jersey's hips done mostly just because although we would like to do some weight pull, the x rays are clear but not the best positioned from what I've read, vet said they looked good, I didn't have them ofa checked since she's just a pet dog. Good, bad? I don't know how to read x rays.
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Postby Kahlie » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:20 am

Thanks for the clarification Sarah!..

the b) question came about from recalling vets (2) who bought pups from a customer breeder of theirs (English Mastiffs). One of who's had to be euthanized as a pup (before age 1) for dysplasia, while the other was later bred. This was many years ago....

Hence my question ....

Thanks for the explanation on how they rate - looking at Tully's Xray (and remembering Lexi's) I'd of that the rating would at least have been a good, if not excellent..I now understand better what OFA (seems?) to look for.

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Postby GoingPostal » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:21 am

Double post for thread-jacking, I meant to start a new one. Sorry Courtney!

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Postby BrokenAquarian » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:46 am

Thanks for the info, Sarah :)
I don't know much about the who process and ratings for HD.
"Fair" just sounds too much like "Ehh, they're alright I guess" lol

Red Chrome

Postby Red Chrome » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:41 pm

BrokenAquarian wrote:If GSD people are saying that the dog will pass with no problem - that is a problem.

If the dog is only "Fair", and passes with flying colors - doesn't that mean that GSD people are letting standards slip so they don't have to weed out so many HD stricken dogs - just because they "aren't that bad"? :(


How is that a problem?

Fair is a rating given by OFA as Sarah has said. GSD's are actually lower than APBT's and AM. Staffs for HD occurences and that's only the one's that are OFA'ed not the thousands that are never radiographed.

As long as Judge passes all health testing and if his hips end up being Fair.......he will still be bred after he titles. It's in the breeder contract and just because he's fair doesn't mean that he will throw HD puppies. There is always a chance that you will get a HD puppy from a litter of excellents. Judge's dad was OFA'ed at the age of 6 years AFTER an injury and he still passed with Good hips, he was A-stamped in Germany at he age of 2. An A Stamp is an equivalent to an Excellent rating by OFA.

Courtney

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Postby msvette2u » Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:17 pm

If his sister is only "fair" too, it seems like you're running risks of passing on worse hips to future generations.
Why is it important to do that?


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