Judge's X-rays....Opinions......

Talk about diets, exercise, and disease.
msvette2u

Postby msvette2u » Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:28 pm

http://leerburg.com/broodbch.htm

In fact, unless a male is outstanding in every other way, I would not breed an OFA fair male.

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Postby BrokenAquarian » Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:37 pm

From the article

If a bitch has a "fair" rating she needs to be above average in all other categories to breed. A word to the wise on selecting breeding partners. Never breed an OFA fair to and OFA fair. You are coasting down hill if you do. In fact, unless a male is outstanding in every other way, I would not breed an OFA fair male. On the other side to this coin, I have had several bitches that were OFA fair that came from OFA Good parents. These bitches never gave me a bad hip. I had an OFA fair bitch that produced OFA excellent pups (go figure).




See, I'm not the only one that thinks a "fair" rating is just "ok" and not "Good"

Good and Excellent are what you want.

msvette2u

Postby msvette2u » Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:43 pm

Yes unless the parents were "excellent" and the female being bred to is excellent, the chances of hips going downhill are too great.

Red Chrome

Postby Red Chrome » Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:56 pm

BrokenAquarian wrote:From the article

If a bitch has a "fair" rating she needs to be above average in all other categories to breed. A word to the wise on selecting breeding partners. Never breed an OFA fair to and OFA fair. You are coasting down hill if you do. In fact, unless a male is outstanding in every other way, I would not breed an OFA fair male. On the other side to this coin, I have had several bitches that were OFA fair that came from OFA Good parents. These bitches never gave me a bad hip. I had an OFA fair bitch that produced OFA excellent pups (go figure).




See, I'm not the only one that thinks a "fair" rating is just "ok" and not "Good"

Good and Excellent are what you want.


Also, I know that you want OFA GOOD and EXCELLENT, that's what I'm shooting for but you work with what you got. I'm not saying that an OFA Fair is good...I'm saying that if ALL other health testing is GREAT and he titles wonderfully....then I'll breed him. Meaning that he'd be outstanding in every other way. That also says that an OFA fair can throw excellent puppies and that said he will NEVER be bred to anything that is less than Good or Excellent.

He is 14 months old and NOBODY knows what he will OFA at when he turns 2. MOST people that I have talked to and who have seen the x-rays say that he will go fair or better. I'm hoping for Good as that will make things easier but if I get Fair then I'll take a Fair.

As far as his sister goes......she will never be bred. She does have to be OFA'ed at 2 but other than that, everything else is up to her owner. Which is not me. If his sister OFAs at Fair, that's decent. Even if his siter ends up being Fair, that has NOTHING to do with Judge especially since all the other littermates have turned out BETTER than Fair.

His other sibling who had an injury as a puppy and has nerve damage pre-lim'ed Excellent, His other sister pre-lim'ed Good, Other sister pre-lim'ed Good, Final brother pre-lim'ed at Good as well. SO I have NO problems if he only ends up being Fair.

That said.....I think this thread has run it's course...it was about Judge's hip x-rays, NOT my breeding him as I have been honest from the time I brought him home. I can say that if he OFA's Fair and then has other less than perfect health testing, he'll be neutered.


Courtney

msvette2u

Postby msvette2u » Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:05 pm

Also, I know that you want OFA GOOD and EXCELLENT, that's what I'm shooting for but you work with what you got.


Gosh, that's a real nice attitude about something this important.
I would not say that at all.
A friend of mine is a GSD breeder in FL. You could learn a lot from her. She's spent over $3000 in dogs lately, one has a bad bite and she isn't breeding him, he is a $1500 PET now.

She bought a female with other issues, and is considering euth'ing the dog as she's not to standard. Another $1500 down the drain.
She didn't say "Well ya work with what you got" and breed LESS than standard dogs because she spent that $$ on them.

I'd say if you're looking to start your own kennels, keep looking for a dog that meets the standards in all ways, with good or better hips.
Don't settle for less, that's why so many breeds are in the shape they are in today.

Red Chrome

Postby Red Chrome » Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:14 pm

msvette2u wrote:
Also, I know that you want OFA GOOD and EXCELLENT, that's what I'm shooting for but you work with what you got.


Gosh, that's a real nice attitude about something this important.
I would not say that at all.
A friend of mine is a GSD breeder in FL. You could learn a lot from her. She's spent over $3000 in dogs lately, one has a bad bite and she isn't breeding him, he is a $1500 PET now.

She bought a female with other issues, and is considering euth'ing the dog as she's not to standard. Another $1500 down the drain.
She didn't say "Well ya work with what you got" and breed LESS than standard dogs because she spent that $$ on them.

I'd say if you're looking to start your own kennels, keep looking for a dog that meets the standards in all ways, with good or better hips.
Don't settle for less, that's why so many breeds are in the shape they are in today.


I'm NOT settling for LESS, I'm striving for perfection with my breeding program.....I honestly feel that IF ALL other health testing and titles are there....but he's a Fair...I will breed him once....to see what he'll throw when paired with an Excellent rated female.

I also think that he'll OFA Good BUT I have to wait and see.

In the end.....He's NOT dysplastic and Fair is passing.....I have a contract to fulfill as long as he passes Fair or better. If he passes with a Fair, he'll only be bred once to an Excellent rated female.

If he passes with a Good, he'll be my foundation dog.

I must ask....What lines is she running? German Show? Working? Am. Bred? East German? West German? DDR? Is she workign them? What's her website? I've made a lot of GSD breeder friends that run working dogs....a few have sene Judge and want him for their program, be it K-9 or their breeding program. The k-9 trainer wants him for street work and breeding. So He must not be TOO bad in the standard department. :)

Courtney

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Postby bahamutt99 » Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:20 pm

Too bad Leerburg's a prick. Oops, did I say that?

Anyway, I just had to whine. When I had Loki's hips screened, I didn't get a copy of her rads. When the pups get screened, maybe I'll just pack my camera and shoot a picture of them before we leave.

msvette2u

Postby msvette2u » Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:22 pm

I will PM you her information.

Red Chrome

Postby Red Chrome » Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:25 pm

bahamutt99 wrote:Too bad Leerburg's a prick. Oops, did I say that?

Anyway, I just had to whine. When I had Loki's hips screened, I didn't get a copy of her rads. When the pups get screened, maybe I'll just pack my camera and shoot a picture of them before we leave.


lol

Ask the vet before their appointment for copies of them. I took the original from both clinics and had copies made. After so long the vets here throw the Rads out so I kept the originals for my files.

Leerburg....is different. My Schutzhund trainer is affiliated with Leerburg pretty heavily and has helped me immensely. My Leerburg opinion is slowly changing after actually having dealings with people that know him and himself.

I'm thinking that I may just not fit in here anymore. Opinions run too high and discussions get too heated...before you post something you have to think really hard if people are gonna see something as being bad...like Judge being on a chain during the day etc. I've got some forum evaluating to do. :frown:

Courtney

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Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:50 pm

Really? My dogs are on the chain all the time... nobody rags on me! I'm sorry I can't afford to spend 1,000 dollars on a fence (to fence 1/4 of my land) when I rent! I'd be really sad to see you go!!

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Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:53 pm

GoingPostal wrote:Ok now I'm curious, I had Jersey's hips done mostly just because although we would like to do some weight pull, the x rays are clear but not the best positioned from what I've read, vet said they looked good, I didn't have them ofa checked since she's just a pet dog. Good, bad? I don't know how to read x rays.


I would say these hips are GOOD. I don't know what it takes to get an OFA excellent as I'm nowhere near radiologist material, but the femoral heads are well seated, the coverage is about 60-70%, and the sockets match up very cleanly and closely.

Pretty good rads too... was he sedated or anesthetized?

Red Chrome

Postby Red Chrome » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:06 pm

Here is what is being said by GSD people that I know online. This comment is from a Breeder that breeds Working Dog lines...East German to be exact.

Allan wrote:The placement of nether one of these x-ray are correct.
The last being the better but still not correct.
Both leg should run parallel with the spine with the knees turned.

They're a little lax but where this dog is only 10 month I would not worry to much.
Exercise the dog and do lots of swimming. This well tighten up the joints.
But no forced running.


So, I guess I'm not going to worry too much about them since the positioning is off and this has been the general consensus.

Thanks for the opinions.

Courtney

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Postby BrokenAquarian » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:40 pm

Don't take my opinion to heart - I know nothing about breed standard bone/joint structure, and I'm not in with the GSD crowd -

So, my opinion is not based on any facts - just . . . my opinion :)

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Postby dawnapbt » Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:46 pm

I read something a while ago that said OFA excellent might actually not be so great and that dogs with such tight hip sockets can develop.... arthritis later on! The article stated OFA good to fair is better in this regard. I'll have to dig it up. I cannot remember it in detail.

So, nothing is concrete when it comes to hips :)

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Postby BrokenAquarian » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:01 pm

That would make sense -
If the socket is too tight, it would cause friction and pressure. If it is too loose, it causes slipping and abnormal friction.


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